Rare Bad Apples Converge

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1296950084' post='2209133']
The police don't decide where protesters can and can't go. The (elected) government body that grants the permit has that job and the police merely enforce the decision.
[/quote]

Clearly. They don't make the rules. They just swing the clubs.

~Sternhauser

[4588686]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296949936' post='2209132']
Would you expect the Soviet Union to keep "statistics" on how many people were "brutalized" under its reign? How would it define it? You are more intelligent than that, Hassan. [/QUOTE]


In fact I had a class with one a top Soviet researcher who spent the cold war smuggling documents out of the USSR and Eastern Germany and has made putting the Soviet archives into a searchable database his life's work.

Turns out the Soviets kept pretty good records, actually. But let's not let facts get in the way of your narrative.

[QUOTE]Here you go. [url="http://tinyurl.com/46thjr2"]Police Brutality Statistics[/url]

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Stern. I am not making any affirmative claim about how endemic police brutality is. That's your crusade. If you want your claims to be taken seriously you should have the initiative to find your own evidence rather than acting as though it is my responsibility to do your work for you.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Hasan

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1296950414' post='2209137']
In fact I had a class with one a top Soviet researcher who spent the cold war smuggling documents out of the USSR and Eastern Germany and has made putting the Soviet archives into a searchable database his life's work.

Turns out the Soviets kept pretty good records, actually. But let's not let facts get in the way of your narrative.[/quote]

Turns out the Germans did, too. And like the Soviets, they did their damndest to keep the records of their misdeeds out of the hands of the common people, for obvious reasons. Do you deny that?

Was that the same John Garrard who helped during the British occupation of Northern Ireland?

Vladimir Bukhovsky, who smuggled thousands of top-secret Kremlin documents, said "I offer them free of charge to the most influential newspapers and journals in the world, but nobody wants to print them. Editors shrug indifferently: So what? Who cares?” [url="http://www.city-journal.org/2010/20_2_soviet-archives.html"]http://www.city-jour...t-archives.html[/url]

That's what we're dealing with in the U.S. when it comes to police brutality. "Who cares?" [i]They don't care. [/i]

[quote]Stern. I am not making any affirmative claim about how endemic police brutality is. That's your crusade. If you want your claims to be taken seriously you should have the initiative to find your own evidence rather than acting as though it is my responsibility to do your work for you.
[/quote]

Hassan, as I said, that would be like trying to prove God exists by using the Bible as proof. It's not how it works. Just because the existence of God "can't" be proved through statistics of miracles does not mean that His existence is any less a reality.

~Sternhauser

Edited February 6, 2011 by Sternhauser

[Lil Red]

moving to debate table.

[4588686]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296950920' post='2209141']
Turns out the Germans did, too. And like the Soviets, they did their damndest to keep the records of their misdeeds out of the hands of the common people, for obvious reasons. Do you deny that?[/QUOTE]

I do not. You denied that the regime would keep such records at all. Which is false.

[QUOTE]Was that the same John Garrard who helped during the British occupation of Northern Ireland? [/QUOTE]

[url="http://www.unc.edu/depts/german/personnel/pike-p.html"]David Pike[/url]




[QUOTE]Hassan, as I said, that would be like trying to prove God exists by using the Bible as proof. It's not how it works. Just because the existence of God "can't" be proved through statistics of miracles does not mean that His existence is any less a reality.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Unlike the Soviet Union (at least during the height of Stalinism) America has a pretty healthy civil society. There are, I am willing to bet, NGO's, academics, think tanks et cetera that devote all or some of their resources to just this issue. If you are interested in seriously looking into this issue I would recommend you start with them. Off the top of my head, the Southern Poverty Law Center or Human and Human Rights Watch would be good places to start. In fact, after about two minutes of looking I can tell you that Human Rights Watch published a 400+ page report on the issue in the 90's. I'd be shocked in even more recent data hadn't been published by HRW or similar organizations.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1296951691' post='2209147']
I do not. You denied that the regime would keep such records at all. Which is false.[/quote]

I denied it in the context of making them public and available for perusal, as you requested of me. Who doesn't remember the scene from "The Longest Day" in which the Germans burned documents in 55 gallon drums? Who doesn't remember how the SS burned camp documents, destroyed the crematoriums and mowed down death camp prisoners before running away as the allies moved in, in order to destroy all evidence and witnesses?


[quote]Unlike the Soviet Union (at least during the height of Stalinism) America has a pretty healthy civil society. There are, I am willing to bet, NGO's, academics, think tanks et cetera that devote all or some of their resources to just this issue. If you are interested in seriously looking into this issue I would recommend you start with them. Off the top of my head, the Southern Poverty Law Center or Human and Human Rights Watch would be good places to start. In fact, after about two minutes of looking I can tell you that Human Rights Watch published a 400+ page report on the issue in the 90's. I'd be shocked in even more recent data hadn't been published by HRW or similar organizations.
[/quote]

The Southern Poverty Law Center are statist thugs who call supporters of Ron Paul "terrorists." They love brutality, as long as it is inflicted upon their enemies. Not a great starting point. The bottom line is, people don't care. Do you think people didn't know that Jews were being rounded up during WWII? The majority of Europeans didn't do anything about it. Nothing. Do I need to come up with "statistics" on that? The majority of people don't care that infants are being slaughtered by the millions every year. Do I need to come up with statistics about that? The Guttmacher Institute (associated with Planned Parenthood) tells all about the millions they slaughter every year. [i]But the majority don't care, and no number of "statistics" will convince them about the underlying truth of the systemic brutality that is an inevitable part of the abortion industry. [/i]They don't want to hear about it. It doesn't concern them directly. They don't recognize what is happening, and therefore they simply don't care.

~Sternhauser

Edited February 6, 2011 by Sternhauser

[4588686]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296950920' post='2209141']


Vladimir Bukhovsky, who smuggled thousands of top-secret Kremlin documents, said "I offer them free of charge to the most influential newspapers and journals in the world, but nobody wants to print them. Editors shrug indifferently: So what? Who cares?” [url="http://www.city-journal.org/2010/20_2_soviet-archives.html"]http://www.city-jour...t-archives.html[/url]

That's what we're dealing with in the U.S. when it comes to police brutality. "Who cares?" [i]They don't care. [/i]


[/quote]


As I have already shown, and linked, I assure you that people do care about 'Top-Secret' Soviet Documents. 50,000 documents, given the time, is not a lot, proportionally speaking. Most of them are pretty mundane and, really, nobody would care. 'Soldier X received a demerit for immoral conduct'. That is to say he showed up to work drunk, raped a German woman, whatever. While the Soviets kept pretty extensive records their classification system was flawed, mostly because of the sheer mass of documents. You'll find incredibly mundane documents labeled as 'top-secret' and pretty important documents will slip through the cracks and end up liberally classified.

A major reason a data base is needed. Too much mundane information about every Soviet country boy who drank too much Vodka the night before. I think you get too wrapped up in titles.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1296952454' post='2209153']
As I have already shown, and linked, I assure you that people do care about 'Top-Secret' Soviet Documents.
[/quote]

Yes, people do care. International politics professors with a special interest in the Cold War, and people who get paid by universities to translate and sort them out. They care. Not the average American.

~Sternhauser

Edited February 6, 2011 by Sternhauser

[Laudate_Dominum]

someone said cornbread.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1296952784' post='2209158']
someone said cornbread.
[/quote]

Somebody takes Laudate's cornbread, and there's gonna be consequences and repercussions!

~Sternhauser

[4588686]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296951989' post='2209151']
I denied it in the context of making them public and available for perusal, as you requested of me. Who doesn't remember the scene from "The Longest Day" in which the Germans burned documents in 55 gallon drums? Who doesn't remember how the SS burned camp documents, destroyed the crematoriums and mowed down death camp prisoners before running away as the allies moved in, in order to destroy all evidence and witnesses?




The Southern Poverty Law Center are statist thugs who call supporters of Ron Paul "terrorists." Not a great starting point. The bottom line is, people don't care. Do you think people didn't know that Jews were being rounded up during WWII? The majority of Europeans didn't do anything about it. Nothing. Do I need to come up with "statistics" on that? The majority of people don't care that infants are being slaughtered by the millions every year. Do I need to come up with statistics about that? The Guttmacher Institute (associated with Planned Parenthood) tells all about the millions they slaughter every year. [i]But the majority don't care, and no number of "statistics" will convince them about the underlying truth of the systemic brutality that is an inevitable part of the abortion industry. [/i]They don't want to hear about it. It doesn't concern them directly. They don't recognize what is happening, and therefore they simply don't care.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Do you not count as 'people'? You are a person. Obviously, some people do care and some people don't care. I'm not asking you to convince PEOPLE that you are right. I am asking if YOU have done even rudimentary research into your passion. The longer we talk the clearer it is that you have not. Sadly, have not only failed to do serious reaserch before spouting off but you are also, by every indication, unwilling to roll up your sleeves and do some hard work to become informed in a subject that you seem to care passionately about. Maybe you should stop condemning 'people' for not caring and look at yourself. What does it say about you that you do (supposedly) care but aren't willing to do serious research about it? Your passion seems to extend so far as arguing about the subject on a forum, posting explosive youtube videos, and surfing the web for exciting, anecdotal tidbits. I guess that's lot more fun than delving into statistics and a boring old dry several hundred page investigations.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Hasan

[4588686]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296952583' post='2209154']
Yes, people do care. International politics professors with a special interest in the Cold War, and people who get paid by universities to translate and sort them out. They care. Not the average American.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

And the people who buy books about the workings of the Soviet Union based on NEVER BEFORE SEEN TOP SECRET SOVIET ARCHIVES!!!!. There is a whole pop-history genre devoted to this. Hundreds of thousands of people pay for the 'knowledge'. Pike hated how slipshod most of the stuff was. But people care. Unlike you, I have numbers to support this.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1296953092' post='2209160']
Do you not count as 'people'? You are a person. Obviously, some people do care and some people don't care. I'm not asking you to convince PEOPLE that you are right. I am asking if YOU have done even rudimentary research into your passion. The longer we talk the clearer it is that you have not. Sadly, have not only failed to do serious reaserch before spouting off but you are also, by every indication, unwilling to roll up your sleeves and do some hard work to become informed in a subject that you seem to care passionately about. Maybe you should stop condemning 'people' for not caring and look at yourself. What does it say about you that you do (supposedly) care but aren't willing to do serious research about it? Your passion seems to extend so far as arguing about the subject on a forum, posting explosive youtube videos, and surfing the web for exciting, anecdotal tidbits. I guess that's lot more fun than delving into statistics and a boring old dry several hundred page investigations.
[/quote]

Hassan, do a majority of people become angry when they see how many abortions are committed a year? No. And why not? Not because they don't have statistics. They don't care because they don't think anyone's rights are violated in an abortion. Do you think it was wrong for that person to get pulled over for not wearing a seatbelt? Do you think it is wrong to pull someone over under threat of death for a broken taillight or driving an unregistered vehicle? People react negatively to seeing violence with their own eyes, Hassan. Not mere numbers. Why should I waste time documenting a practice that people don't care about, when "statistics" can't make them believe that most cases of brutality are unjustified in the first place?

Every member of the Denver police department got one of these shirts. Who cares?

[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3152/2912885862_52e07ce791.jpg[/img]



~Sternhauser

Edited February 6, 2011 by Sternhauser

[4588686]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296954605' post='2209165']
Hassan, do a majority of people become angry when they see how many abortions are committed a year? No. And why not? Not because they don't have statistics. But because they don't think anyone's rights are violated in an abortion. Do you think it was wrong for that person to get pulled over for wearing a seatbelt? Do you think it is wrong to pull someone over under threat of death for a broken taillight or driving an unregistered vehicle? People react negatively to seeing violence with their own eyes, Hassan. Not numbers. Why should I waste time documenting a practice that people don't care about, when "statistics" can't make them believe that most cases of brutality are unjustified in the first place?

Every member of the Denver police department got one of these shirts. Who cares?

[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3152/2912885862_52e07ce791.jpg[/img]



~Sternhauser
[/quote]

I've already told you why. You avoided that and repeated your self serving excuse that you don't need to actually do some serious research into your subject because (most) people don't care (supposedly). Why would you want to do serious research? I don't know. Maybe so you can understand the issue, how systemic it is, what policies tend to encourage such incidents...et cetera I could go on and on.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1296954832' post='2209166']
I've already told you why. You avoided that and repeated your self serving excuse that you don't need to actually do some serious research into your subject because (most) people don't care (supposedly). Why would you want to do serious research? I don't know. Maybe so you can understand the issue, how systemic it is, what policies tend to encourage such incidents...et cetera I could go on and on.
[/quote]

Hassan, did abolitionists care how many people were enslaved, or what "policies" contributed to their slavery? I'm sure plenty of them could have done research about how many slaves were whipped, beaten, or killed, and for what reasons. It would have been laborious and time-consuming to collect, and ultimately useless. Meanwhile, Harriet Beecher Stowe made a difference by using a [i]novel[/i] to illustrate the evils of slavery (albeit in a very dramatized manner.) If there were many people who cared about statistics, I might put more effort into those. The reality is that people are guided more by emotion than reason. Hence, that is the tack I take.

~Sternhauser

Edited February 6, 2011 by Sternhauser

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1296953092' post='2209160']
Your passion seems to extend so far as .... surfing the web for exciting, anecdotal tidbits. .
[/quote]


[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296954605' post='2209165']

[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3152/2912885862_52e07ce791.jpg[/img]

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

call him Carnac!!!

[4588686]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296955002' post='2209169']
Hassan, did abolitionists care how many people were enslaved, or what "policies" contributed to their slavery?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

I can't speak to the level of knowledge 'abolitionists' had because that is a class of individuals of varying levels or education and expertise.

Any abolitionists that were not willing to study the issue of slavery to understand how the system worked, what policies encouraged it (particularly what Southern economic policies encouraged it), and successful attempts to end the practice in other countries were either lazy or foolish.

[4588686]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296955002' post='2209169']
. Meanwhile, Harriet Beecher Stowe made a difference by using a [i]novel[/i] to illustrate the evils of slavery (albeit in a very dramatized manner.) If there were many people who cared about statistics, I might put more effort into those. The reality is that people are guided more by emotion than reason. Hence, that is the tack I take.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

So people don't like statistics but prefer emotions so you should not feel under any obligation to understand the issue your our campaigning against.

So your preference is for the ignorant to lead the ignorant by emotional appeal. Sounds solid. Let me know how that goes.

Thankfully, there are serious people out there who seriously care about ending policy brutality and are willing to do serious work to fight it.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1296955274' post='2209171']
I can't speak to the level of knowledge 'abolitionists' had because that is a class of individuals of varying levels or education and expertise.

Any abolitionists that were not willing to study the issue of slavery to understand how the system worked, what policies encouraged it (particularly what Southern economic policies encouraged it), and successful attempts to end the practice in other countries were either lazy or foolish.
[/quote]

Hassan, the only reason to study how slavery works is to end it. And it was only ended when a majority of people believed it was wrong. And they did not come to that conclusion by looking at how many people were beaten while they were enslaved. They came to that conclusion by recognizing that slavery is wrong. That no human being has a right to own another human being. I noticed the North was so upset about slavery that they made sure all the cotton the slaves picked went to the North instead of overseas, lest they face a tariff in the 40% range.

~Sternhauser

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296950197' post='2209135']
Clearly. They don't make the rules. They just swing the clubs.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Oh come on. I spent 20 min. at the March for Life last week leaning on an (unmarked) cop car. No one ever came over and made us move away from it. True, I didn't write my name in the dust on the car...but I could have. No one ever told us what we weren't allowed to do or threatened to arrest us. If you follow the rules (and of course there are [i]rules[/i] about political protest and parades), the police are just standing there to keep order and monitor traffic.

When was the last time you heard about someone getting arrested at the March for Life?

And is this because the DC cops are pro-war and anti-abortion? Really?

No, it's because (some of) the anti-war protesters thought that getting arrested would get them more publicity and make their protest more meaningful. So they intentionally broke the rules [i]looking[/i] for a consequence. I've known abortion protesters who got themselves arrested, too, and generally it was because they specifically did something illegal.

DC has had the highest murder rate in the country in recent history, but it is [i]not[/i] the worst offender when it comes to violent crime in general. Detroit has that honor (if I am not mistaken) while DC doesn't even make the top 15. Like most cities, though, it's neighborhood by neighborhood. You would be unwise to wander into Anacostia on foot.