The Legalistation/decriminalisation Of Cannabis.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1297045645' post='2209535']
I don't think Jesus would've made wine for already-drunk people.

[/quote]
[b]John 2:9-10[/b] [sup]9[/sup] and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside [sup]10[/sup] and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after [b]the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.” [/b]

[quote]Gold, no. Silver has antibiotic properties. [/quote]
Well that debunks the theory then. The chalice is gold plated on the inside.

[quote]I am of the opinion that the Precious Blood should not be distributed because of the risk of spilling It,[/quote]
Huh? What's it for then?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297042203' post='2209512']
My point, as it was before, is that this is a choice left to the individual, not the government. Same with marijuana, IMO. It should be up to the individual to choose whether or not to consume, then to make the responsible choice and not consume in excess.

Do you think the state government acts as the parents of the entire country?
[/quote]

Yes to a certain extent. Dangerous activities that impinge on the public are illegal and should be. Train surfing, swimming in dangerous area's, free climbing buildings or in parks to mention a couple, all put pressure on society funded assets such as rescue services, health systems and the danger to bystanders. Smoking cannabis in addition to the high risks of smoking tobacco places additional burdens on health resources and increases the risks to the public [url="http://www.drugs.health.gov.au/internet/drugs/publishing.nsf/content/marijuana"]see here[/url]. I voted for keeping it illegal but I do not see it as a criminal offence.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' timestamp='1297070399' post='2209609']
I live in California currently and there is only one problem with your scenario, the sale of marijuana is already mainly in the hands of business men here and it is fairly easy to get. Prop 19 failed here and the companies that already sell medical marijuana played a big role in its failing. They donated a great deal of money to anti-Prop 19 ads (Prop 19 would have legalized it in California). Selling marijuana is already a huge industry for these companies and they didn't want more competition in the market. It is not terribly hard to get one of the medical cards to be able to buy "medical" marijuana and I know of people who have the cards and who supply others with marijuana. The wealthy businessmen that you speak of are already making millions of dollars off of medicinal marijuana...and the drug cartels still exist. I think the problem will not be solved in switching the power from one group to another b/c cheap weed will still be in demand and the cartels will still provide it...in fact, legalizing may just make more users for the cartels to potentially sell to. They'll just undercut the "government approved" marijuana prices and people will still buy it from them, like they do now. Just something to think about.




In my little thought experiment concerning what would be possible in a just society with rightful government, I had a caveat about how rightful authority would defer to the rights of the parents on such issues and how there are examples of modern alcohol laws that do such a thing. However, perhaps I did not make the wording forceful enough to reflect this idea that when government crafts laws it should keep in mind its own role and the rights of parents concerning the raising of children. I apologize for not being clearer. That being said, when the people are able to make such decisions, I do think it is perfectly legitimate for the people of a society to choose to allow or not allow certain substances in their country.

**Edit**Spelling
[/quote]

Are you in southern California? I'm not aware of businessmen involved in the marijuana trade, but the Mexicans are into it in a big way. Did you hear Felipe Calderon arguing that if marijuana was legalized in California it would harm the poor Mexican farmers who are struggling to support their families. I personally know a number of Mexicans -- some here legally and some illegally -- who bring marijuana across the border and sell it. And I find it annoying that the newspapers and the media tend to twist things and argue that a Mexican -- who was deported because he was caught selling drugs -- was really deported because he was here illegally. Most, if not all, of the Mexicans who are deported are being deported because of drugs. And the main drug appears to be marijuana.

[Papist]

[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"][b]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/b][/size][/font][/color]

[b][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]2211[/size][/font][/color][/b][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] The political community has a duty to honor the family, to assist it, and to ensure especially:[/size][/font][/color]

[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] [color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]- [/size][/font][/color][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]the freedom to establish a family, have children, and bring them up in keeping with the family's own moral and religious convictions;[/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] [color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]- [/size][/font][/color][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]the protection of the stability of the marriage bond and the institution of the family;[/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] [color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]- [/size][/font][/color][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]the freedom toprofess one's faith, to hand it on, and raise one's children in it, with thenecessary means and institutions;[/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] [color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]- [/size][/font][/color][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]the right to private property, to free enterprise, to obtain work and housing, and the right to emigrate;[/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] [color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]- [/size][/font][/color][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]in keeping with the country's institutions, the right to medical care, assistance for the aged, and family benefits;[/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] [color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]- [u] [/u][/size][/font][/color][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"][u]the protection of security and health, especially with respect to dangers like drugs, pornography, alcoholism, etc.;[/u][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] [color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]- [/size][/font][/color][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]the freedom to form associations with other families and so to have representation before civilauthority.[/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"][b] [/b][/size][/font][/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"][b][font="Verdana"][size="2"]2291[/size][/font][/b] [font="Verdana"][size="2"]The[/size][/font] [i][font="Verdana"][size="2"]use of drugs[/size][/font][/i] [font="Verdana"][size="2"]inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, excepton strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production ofand trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute directco-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contraryto the moral law.[/size][/font][/size][/font][/color]

Edited February 7, 2011 by Papist

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297073387' post='2209612']
Huh? What's it for then?
[/quote]
There's no reason the Precious Blood needs to be distributed to anyone. Only the priest need consume it. This is what happened before the 60s.

[Nihil Obstat]

Mine in [color="#000080"]blue[/color].

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1297088887' post='2209642']
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"][b]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/b][/size][/font][/color]

[b][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]2211[/size][/font][/color][/b][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] The political community has a duty to honor the family, to assist it, and to ensure especially:[/size][/font][/color]

[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] [color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]- [/size][/font][/color][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]the freedom to establish a family, have children, and bring them up in keeping with the family's own moral and religious convictions;[/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color="#000080"]The State has failed at this. Funding of abortion and contraception is mutually exclusive with this ideal.[/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] [color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]- [/size][/font][/color][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]the protection of the stability of the marriage bond and the institution of the family;[/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color="#000080"]The State actively undermines this.[/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] [color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]- [/size][/font][/color][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]the freedom toprofess one's faith, to hand it on, and raise one's children in it, with thenecessary means and institutions;[/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color="#000080"]Done poorly, if at all.[/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] [color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]- [/size][/font][/color][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]the right to private property, to free enterprise, to obtain work and housing, and the right to emigrate;[/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color="#000080"]Getting iffier every day.[/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] [color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]- [/size][/font][/color][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]in keeping with the country's institutions, the right to medical care, assistance for the aged, and family benefits;[/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color="#000080"]The State tends to get in the way of this. If we have it, it is in spite of their intervention.[/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] [color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]- [u] [/u][/size][/font][/color][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"][u]the protection of security and health, especially with respect to dangers like drugs, pornography, alcoholism, etc.;[/u][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color="#000080"]See my post above RE: alcohol, caffeine.[/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] [color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]- [/size][/font][/color][color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"]the freedom to form associations with other families and so to have representation before civilauthority.[/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color="#000080"]Intervention in relevant industries crowds out potential 'associations'.[/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"][b] [/b][/size][/font][/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana"][size="2"][b][font="Verdana"][size="2"]2291[/size][/font][/b] [font="Verdana"][size="2"]The[/size][/font] [i][font="Verdana"][size="2"]use of drugs[/size][/font][/i] [font="Verdana"][size="2"]inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, excepton strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production ofand trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute directco-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contraryto the moral law.[/size][/font][/size][/font][/color]
[color="#000080"]Already addressed.[/color]
[/quote]
In short, the state government fails at most, if not all of these. What moral authority does it truly have? None whatsoever.

[Papist]

[center][center][font="Arial"][size="3"][left][center]
[/center][/left][/size][/font][/center][/center]

Edited February 7, 2011 by Papist

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1297084061' post='2209631']
Are you in southern California? I'm not aware of businessmen involved in the marijuana trade, but the Mexicans are into it in a big way. Did you hear Felipe Calderon arguing that if marijuana was legalized in California it would harm the poor Mexican farmers who are struggling to support their families. I personally know a number of Mexicans -- some here legally and some illegally -- who bring marijuana across the border and sell it. And I find it annoying that the newspapers and the media tend to twist things and argue that a Mexican -- who was deported because he was caught selling drugs -- was really deported because he was here illegally. Most, if not all, of the Mexicans who are deported are being deported because of drugs. And the main drug appears to be marijuana.
[/quote]

I'm in Berkeley and the businessmen I am talking about are not businessmen who happen to sell marijuana but rather the businesses that run the companies that sell marijuana to people with the medical cards for "medicinal" reasons. It is a multi-billion dollar industry and from what I understand the cards that allow one to be able to buy it are very easy to get.

I have also wondered about the negative effects that legalization would have on individual Mexicans and their families but if perhaps in the long run it might be better for the Mexican people since it would harm the drug lords that harm that country so much.

[Papist]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]"It is true that there is a distinct difference between the use of drugs and the use of alcohol: while a moderate use of the latter a sa drink does not offend moral principles, only its abuse can be condemned; instead, the use of drugs is always unlawful because it implies an unjustifiedand unreasonable renunciation of thinking, desiring and acting as a freeperson" (Dolentium Hominum, 19, Vll, 1992, n. 1).[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"] [/font][font="Tahoma"][size="2"]Pontifical Council for the Family[/size][/font]
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]Should 'soft' drugs be legalized?[/size][/font]
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]January 17, 1997[/size][/font]
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"][url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCFDRUGS.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/...IA/PCFDRUGS.HTM[/url][/size][/font]

Edited February 7, 2011 by Papist

[ParadiseFound]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1297102641' post='2209700']
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]"It is true that there is a distinct difference between the use of drugs and the use of alcohol[/size][/font][/quote]
As someone pointed out before, alcohol [b]is[/b] a drug.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1297103152' post='2209703']
As someone pointed out before, alcohol [b]is[/b] a drug.
[/quote]

Technically alcohol is hydroxyl group (-OH) that is attached to a carbon atom...just saying. Alcohol may be a drug but I find it a bit dishonest to lump it in with what we normally call drugs, though one obviously must still use alcohol prudently.

[Papist]

[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1297103152' post='2209703']
As someone pointed out before, alcohol [b]is[/b] a drug.
[/quote]

Oh I see. Alcohol is legal. Alcohol is a drug. Therefore, all drugs should be legal. Am I getting the logic now?

[Nihil Obstat]

Just as an experiment, I took that document cited above, took the section about why drugs, illegal or legal, are harmful, and I replaced "drugs" with alcohol.


14. Because alcohol dependence among young people is due to the weakness of our educational system, it is not apparent how the legalization of these substances promotes greater control of them by young people and, above all, how could it help them understand what they are seeking through these substances.
15. The legalization of alcohol implies the risk of causing the opposite effect to that sought. In fact, it is easy to admit that what is legal is normal and therefore moral. Through the legalization of alcohol, it is not the product that is thereby legalized, but rather the reasons leading to the consumption of this product that are justified. Now, no one will deny that alcohol use is an evil. Whether alcohol are illegally purchased or distributed by the State, they are always harmful to man.
16. On the other hand, should the law recognize this behaviour as normal, one might wonder how the public authorities would deal with having to educate and care for persons as a result of the risks this legalization would involve. We are faced with a further contradiction of the modern world, which trivializes a phenomenon and then attempts to deal with its negative consequences.
17. The social repercussions of this legalization must also be considered. Will the spread of crime and illnesses linked to dependence as well as the increase in traffic accidents resulting from easy access to alcohol be courageously examined? Are we ready to entrust ourselves professionally to the alcohol dependent? Must we guarantee them job security? Furthermore, does the State really have the financial means and personnel for dealing with the growth of health problems that the legalization of alcohol would inevitably entail?
18. In view of these problems, the primary duty of the State is to safeguard the common good. This requires it to protect the rights, stability and unity of the family. By destroying a young person, alcohol destroy the family, both the family of the present and that of the future. Should this vital and primordial cell of society be threatened, society as a whole will suffer. On the other hand, as the Pontifical Council for the Family stresses, alcohol dependence is one of the reasons for the weakening of the family and the break-up of homes:[7] "<The experience of those who work with special competence in the world of alcohol dependence ... unanimously confirms that the Christian model>" of the family based on "<authentic love: the unique, faithful, and indissoluble love of spouses remains the primary point of reference upon which to insist in any action for the prevention, treatment and recovery of the vitality of the individual">.[8]
19. Thus in ensuring the common good, the State also has the task of watching over the citizens' well-being. The State's assistance to its citizens must correspond to the principle of impartiality and subsidiarily: that is, it must first protect the weakest and poorest of society's members, despite themselves. It cannot therefore relinquish its duty to protect those who have not yet reached maturity and are potential victims of alcohol abuse. Furthermore, if the State adopts or maintains a consistent and courageous stance on alcohol, combating them regardless of their type, this attitude will at the same time help in the struggle against alcohol and tobacco abuse.
20. The Church wishes to draw attention to the repercussions of this phenomenon. She emphasizes the fact that, in the event of the legalization of the sale and use of products encouraging alcohol dependence, the future of individuals is at stake. The lives of some will be diminished, that is, marred, while others, perhaps without falling into real dependence, will waste their youth without fully developing their potential. Experiments must not be carried out at people's expense. The behaviour that leads to alcohol dependence has no chance of being corrected if the products that encourage this behaviour are sold without restriction.
21. On the contrary, as the Holy Father said:[9] "<the possibility of recuperation and redemption from the heavy slavery>" of alcohol with methods based on acceptance, respect, education in freedom and love "<has been proved concretely, and it is significant that this has taken place with methods which strictly exclude any granting of alcohol, legal or illegal>" whether these are alcohol themselves or substitutes. Pope John Paul II added: "<alcohol abuse cannot be conquered with alcohol>".
22. Various attitudes are possible towards the problem of alcohol abuse and they can all be justified. However, rather than a policy of simple "limitation" or "reduction" of the damage, accepting as a fact of civilization that part of the population uses alcohol and is heading for destruction, would it not be preferable to opt for a policy of true prevention, aimed at building (or rebuilding) a "culture of life" in this "marginalization" of our civilization of efficiency?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1297103955' post='2209710']
Oh I see. Alcohol is legal. Alcohol is a drug. Therefore, all drugs should be legal. Am I getting the logic now?
[/quote]
No, it means we need to seriously reexamine our terminology. If we want 'drugs' to be illegal because they;re 'harmful', why is alcohol magically exempt?

[Papist]

.[img]http://catholiceducation.org/images/miscellaneous/MARIJUANA.JPG[/img]

[Nihil Obstat]

Apply your own logic to alcohol and caffeine and show me, with valid logic, why they are moral and marijuana absolutely cannot be.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297104592' post='2209716']
Apply your own logic to alcohol and caffeine and show me, with valid logic, why they are moral and marijuana absolutely cannot be.
[/quote]

I think I provided a fairly good logical reasoning of why a society can choose to ban marijuana and not alcohol (and then explained certain points in a later post in order to be clearer). I think that reasoning is solid, though no one has really argued with it...minus saying I would rather give authority to the government rather than parents. A fact, which is just blatantly untrue.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' timestamp='1297106465' post='2209730']
I think I provided a fairly good logical reasoning of why a society can choose to ban marijuana and not alcohol (and then explained certain points in a later post in order to be clearer). I think that reasoning is solid, though no one has really argued with it...minus saying I would rather give authority to the government rather than parents. A fact, which is just blatantly untrue.
[/quote]
The way I interpreted your argument was that
-legitimate authority may restrict certain substances (as parents do with children)
-therefore state government may restrict substances such as marijuana and alcohol.

I agree with the first, not the second. You miss a second proposition that "state government has the same authority as a parent over their child". I do not cede that. Legitimate authority may restrict the consumption of something such as alcohol, and especially to minors. Parents have that authority. Our state governments have no moral authority.
The State is not a giant common parent. It wants to be, but it is not and cannot be such.

[4588686]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297106731' post='2209734']
The way I interpreted your argument was that
-legitimate authority may restrict certain substances (as parents do with children)
-therefore state government may restrict substances such as marijuana and alcohol.

I agree with the first, not the second. You miss a second proposition that "state government has the same authority as a parent over their child". I do not cede that. Legitimate authority may restrict the consumption of something such as alcohol, and especially to minors. Parents have that authority. Our state governments have no moral authority.
The State is not a giant common parent. It wants to be, but it is not and cannot be such.
[/quote]

Isn't this contrary the how Christianity has historically viewed the state?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1297106865' post='2209735']
Isn't this contrary the how Christianity has historically viewed the state?
[/quote]
I don't really think so. We've always talked about "legitimate" government. Right now, I think that's not a reality. It may have been in the past (I'm no historian), but I can't think of an example of legitimate government today.