And With Your Spirit

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1301283283' post='2223831']
All those saints of the past would bow to the decisions of the current Popes today, Nihil...

Whatever is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven, and what is held bound is held bound....


Sorry, but I'll stick to the directive of the present Popes, cos, I don't live in the past....I live NOW, I live TODAY, and Holy Mother Church TODAY allows for worship in the vernacular....

like i said previously....everything else are the puny opinions of men....
[/quote]
The Church cannot contradict Herself. The Church I quoted is the same Church today.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Nihil Obstat

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1301284141' post='2223832']
The Church cannot contradict Herself. The Church I quoted is the same Church today.
[/quote]

apparently, you don't think so? Iono, it just seems you think you know better than the Church of today, I may be wrong...


anyways, I'm doing exactly what i said I don't like to do, and that is argue for nothing, nothing will get through to peeps who have strong opinions (and I emphasize opinions) over what our beloved Mother Church gives to us...

[vee]

[quote name='rkwright' timestamp='1301281506' post='2223826']
Great post!

It is the Church's duty, not ours, to determine what is proper worship. And I'm glad -[b] I trust the Bishops of the Church much more than I trust DS or Vee![/b]
[/quote]
Thank God for that!!!!!

I like what St Ignatius has to say about obedience
“We should always be disposed to believe that that which appears white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides”

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1301284824' post='2223834']
apparently, you don't think so? Iono, it just seems you think you know better than the Church of today, I may be wrong...


anyways, I'm doing exactly what i said I don't like to do, and that is argue for nothing, nothing will get through to peeps who have strong opinions (and I emphasize opinions) over what our beloved Mother Church gives to us...
[/quote]
Nope, I'm saying the Church never changed.
The Church has given us immense grace, especially in the Mass, and the Mass is certainly not limited to the N.O. celebrated poorly today by priests who don't care, for congregations who are only Catholic on Sundays.

[Luigi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1301285343' post='2223837']
Nope, I'm saying the Church never changed.
The Church has given us immense grace, especially in the Mass, and the Mass is certainly not limited to the N.O. celebrated poorly today by priests who don't care, for congregations who are only Catholic on Sundays.
[/quote]

I really, really object to the judgmental tone of this post, and the way you attribute motivations to/about people you don't even know, in a blanket statement. For all your college educated theology, you fall quickly and deeply into the logical fallacies that you are so quick to point out in other people's reasoning.

Priests who celebrate Mass in a way you disapprove are not necessarily "priests who don't care." And I should think someone who claims to be uber-Catholic would have just the least little bit of charity toward men that God himself has called into Holy Orders, especially during Lent.

People who attend Mass on Sundays, as required by the Church, are not necessarily "congregations who are only Catholic on Sundays." And I should think someone who claims to be uber-Catholic would have just the least little bit of charity toward his brothers and sisters in Christ, especiailly during Lent. When you're married, have children, work overtime, maintain the house & car, take care of aging parents, serve on the school board, are asked to donate to fourteen charities a week (and you DO donate), and try to squeeze in some quality time with your wife and maybe a volleyball night with the men of the parish - that's when you can start passing judgment on "congregations who are only Catholic on Sundays. But not when you've got time enough to sit on your tuchus all dad-blame day wasting time on the Internet pontificating and passing judgement on "priests who don't care" and "congregations who are only Catholic on Sundays."

And I really, really object to your attitude of superiority - evident throughout this thread - toward anyone who doesn't worship as you worship. "My worship is correct, incorrect worship is not worship, I am the arbiter of correct worship, all who worship as I worship truly worship and those who do not worship as I worship do not, in fact, worship." I respectfully submit that you worship [i]the way [/i]you worship more than worshipping [i]what you ought [/i]to worship. Now don't get upset by that statement, either - it's just a blanket statement in which I attribute motivations to people I've never met while I waste my time on the Internet pontificating.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1301287684' post='2223844']
I really, really object to the judgmental tone of this post, and the way you attribute motivations to/about people you don't even know, in a blanket statement. For all your college educated theology, you fall quickly and deeply into the logical fallacies that you are so quick to point out in other people's reasoning.

Priests who celebrate Mass in a way you disapprove are not necessarily "priests who don't care." And I should think someone who claims to be uber-Catholic would have just the least little bit of charity toward men that God himself has called into Holy Orders, especially during Lent.

People who attend Mass on Sundays, as required by the Church, are not necessarily "congregations who are only Catholic on Sundays." And I should think someone who claims to be uber-Catholic would have just the least little bit of charity toward his brothers and sisters in Christ, especiailly during Lent. When you're married, have children, work overtime, maintain the house & car, take care of aging parents, serve on the school board, are asked to donate to fourteen charities a week (and you DO donate), and try to squeeze in some quality time with your wife and maybe a volleyball night with the men of the parish - that's when you can start passing judgment on "congregations who are only Catholic on Sundays. But not when you've got time enough to sit on your tuchus all dad-blame day wasting time on the Internet pontificating and passing judgement on "priests who don't care" and "congregations who are only Catholic on Sundays."

And I really, really object to your attitude of superiority - evident throughout this thread - toward anyone who doesn't worship as you worship. "My worship is correct, incorrect worship is not worship, I am the arbiter of correct worship, all who worship as I worship truly worship and those who do not worship as I worship do not, in fact, worship." I respectfully submit that you worship [i]the way [/i]you worship more than worshipping [i]what you ought [/i]to worship. Now don't get upset by that statement, either - it's just a blanket statement in which I attribute motivations to people I've never met while I waste my time on the Internet pontificating.
[/quote]
#1, I have no college theology. No formal theology whatsoever. I have been taught by myself and by friends.
#2, I'm not saying that every priest I disagree with is a priest who doesn't care. I'm saying priests who don't care are the priests who don't care. Don't read more into my post than what I left you.
#3, I talk about people who are only Catholic on Sundays because that is a huge portion of my experience. In fact it's extremely personal to me, because I have spent my entire life with people who are only Catholic on Sundays, and then only for about two hours. Trust me, I know it. I'm looking down on nobody. I have a problem with cultural Catholicism, and it's [i]extremely[/i] personal. Don't you dare tell me that I have a problem with charity. Not until you're spent 19 years in my shoes.
#4, you have obviously read my posts with your own little fiddler. This is dishonest of you and not fair to me. I worship the way I think is best, and I have learned things from being in a variety of scenarios. If I don't share how I grew in faith, then I am not giving my best to God and to my brothers and sisters.

I heard a clever man say once that if someone accuses you of something, check before you do anything else to see if he's doing the same thing. I'm not going to say any more than that.

[Papist]

When this topic comes up, I much too often hear why mine is wrong and not why yours is good. If someone worships one way, please tell me why you prefer it and why you think it is so great. Please do not tell me the way I worship is bad/wrong/lacking/etc., especially when it is Church approved. Tearing down my worship is not going to build yours up.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Papist

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1301319462' post='2223895']
When this topic comes up, I much too often hear why mine is wrong and not why yours is good. If someone worships one way, please tell me why you prefer it and why you think it is so great. Please do not tell me the way I worship is bad/wrong/lacking/etc., especially when it is Church approved. Tearing down my worship is not going to build yours up.
[/quote]
Can I tell you that your worship is bad or wrong if you are, for instance, a liturgical dancer in a parish with no crucifix and the tabernacle hidden in some closet, altar in the centre of a giant circle, and everyone self-Communicates?

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1301322077' post='2223897']
Can I tell you that your worship is bad or wrong if you are, for instance, a liturgical dancer in a parish with no crucifix and the tabernacle hidden in some closet, altar in the centre of a giant circle, and everyone self-Communicates?
[/quote]

Oh Mr. Judgemental ! Herod thought that John the Baptist was wrong for pointing out error, many saints throughout the ages have been condemned for this very thing.

ed

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1301322077' post='2223897']
Can I tell you that your worship is bad or wrong if you are, for instance, a liturgical dancer in a parish with no crucifix and the tabernacle hidden in some closet, altar in the centre of a giant circle, and everyone self-Communicates?
[/quote]
He did specify "Church approved."

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1301352345' post='2224002']
He did specify "Church approved."
[/quote]
Not what I was getting at. I think my example proves that this "judging" behaviour isn't always wrong.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1301354244' post='2224020']
Not what I was getting at. I think my example proves that this "judging" behaviour isn't always wrong.
[/quote]
Not always, provided your judging the actions and not the people, and as long as it isn't something the Church approves.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1301361836' post='2224067']
Not always, provided your judging the actions and not the people, and as long as it isn't something the Church approves.
[/quote]
My point is that it is incorrect to state that it is always uncharitable to say that someone's worship is flawed. That shouldn't even need to be established.
For a person to say that someone else worships poorly or in a flawed manner does not automatically mean that person is a judgmental 'Pharisee'. It may very well mean that he just has some knowledge that he feels he must in charity share. It may, ultimately, be an act of love.

Like I said, this shouldn't even need to be established.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1301362333' post='2224070']
My point is that it is incorrect to state that it is always uncharitable to say that someone's worship is flawed. That shouldn't even need to be established.
For a person to say that someone else worships poorly or in a flawed manner does not automatically mean that person is a judgmental 'Pharisee'. It may very well mean that he just has some knowledge that he feels he must in charity share. It may, ultimately, be an act of love.

Like I said, this shouldn't even need to be established.
[/quote]
And I don't believe Papist said it did, so I don't quite understand why you feel the need to establish this...

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1301363453' post='2224080']
And I don't believe Papist said it did, so I don't quite understand why you feel the need to establish this...
[/quote]
His criticisms of me are based on the assumption that if I offer criticism, it is because I am uncharitable and arrogant. This is a poor premise and highly insulting.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1301363740' post='2224085']
His criticisms of me are based on the assumption that if I offer criticism, it is because I am uncharitable and arrogant. This is a poor premise and highly insulting.
[/quote]
I'm sorry. I don't see where he addressed it to you, specifically.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1301367483' post='2224109']
I'm sorry. I don't see where he addressed it to you, specifically.
[/quote]
Ed and Luigi are actually much worse than Papist is.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1301367673' post='2224112']
Ed and Luigi are actually much worse than Papist is.
[/quote]
Then why did you quote Papist?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1301367718' post='2224113']
Then why did you quote Papist?
[/quote]
He happened to be the last person to address me at that particular moment.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1301367673' post='2224112']
Ed and Luigi are actually much worse than Papist is.
[/quote]

Gee thanks, and I was actually on your side when I posted Mr. Judgemental as a sacracasm aimed at the thought that pointing out error was somehow wrong and not a moral duty to be lauded, I thought you could see that when I wrote how John the Baptist and many saints have been condemned by their detractors for doing just that, pointing out the errors of anothers actions.

ed