thessalonian Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) I have a statement I would like to see discussed. Everything AUTHENTICALLY Catholic brings us closer to salvation, everything not Catholic works against our salvation. Just curious. Edited February 17, 2011 by thessalonian
CatherineM Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Except for the stuff that calls itself Catholic that really isn't.
thessalonian Posted February 17, 2011 Author Posted February 17, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1297909674' post='2213146'] Except for the stuff that calls itself Catholic that really isn't. [/quote] Fixed.
Nihil Obstat Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 What about morally neutral actions? Are we talking only elements of faith, or elements of faith and actions with moral elements? Or can we include neutral actions?
thessalonian Posted February 18, 2011 Author Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) Not just talking morality. Is there such thing as something that is religiously nuetral? Edited February 18, 2011 by thessalonian
rhetoricfemme Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 [quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1297990648' post='2213445'] Not just talking morality. Is there such thing as something that is religiously nuetral? [/quote] Pie. Sorry... To provide a serious answer, though... Maybe it's our intentions or reactions to something that seems to be religiously neutral that matters. Like the pie!! It's a rather innocuous treat, really. But do you approach the pie with gluttony? Does it tempt you in a way that would cause you to treat another person in an uncharitable manner?
Ed Normile Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 [quote name='rhetoricfemme' timestamp='1298003403' post='2213481'] Pie. Sorry... To provide a serious answer, though... Maybe it's our intentions or reactions to something that seems to be religiously neutral that matters. Like the pie!! It's a rather innocuous treat, really. But do you approach the pie with gluttony? Does it tempt you in a way that would cause you to treat another person in an uncharitable manner? [/quote] I would lie to you to divert your attention and then gulp down your pie ravenously right after eating my piece of pie, as long as its cherry, apple or pumpkin. I would slap you unconscious for a piece of strawberry pie. Does that count for anything uncharitable? ed
havok579257 Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 [quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1297909209' post='2213141'] I have a statement I would like to see discussed. Everything AUTHENTICALLY Catholic brings us closer to salvation, everything not Catholic works against our salvation. Just curious. [/quote] define authentically catholic?
thessalonian Posted February 18, 2011 Author Posted February 18, 2011 I do not believe that anything is neutral. A good piece of pie points me toward God. That is for sure. 6 pieces would point me away however.
Nihil Obstat Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 [quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1298052601' post='2213627'] I do not believe that anything is neutral. A good piece of pie points me toward God. That is for sure. 6 pieces would point me away however. [/quote] What about choosing Cheerios over Corn Flakes?
Seven77 Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 So then tacos, so very tasty and good for you, are Catholic?! I knew it!!!
thessalonian Posted February 18, 2011 Author Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1298056528' post='2213639'] What about choosing Cheerios over Corn Flakes? [/quote] One can still contemplate God in reflecting on being able to make such choices. I do not believe there is anything in this life that does not point toward or direct us away from God with some reflection. Now surely we can go about making mindless choices, not thinking about God, but I do believe that in everything we can marvel at his goodness. In everything we can neglect him. If we fail to acknowledge him in some thing or contemplate him it seems to me we have missed an opportunity to grow. Edited February 18, 2011 by thessalonian
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam Posted February 19, 2011 Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1297909209' post='2213141'] I have a statement I would like to see discussed. Everything AUTHENTICALLY Catholic brings us closer to salvation, everything not Catholic works against our salvation. Just curious. [/quote] I think your statement is aiming towards something good; however, it seems to me to be lacking. I think St. Ignatius Loyola put it best in his writings concerning the foundation of the Society of Jesus. "[b]The First Principle and Foundation[/b] The human person is created to praise, reverence, and serve God Our Lord, and by doing so, to save his or her soul. All other things on the face of the earth are created for human beings in order to help them pursue the end for which they are created. It follows from this that one must use other created things, in so far as they help towards one's end, and free oneself from them, in so far as they are obstacles to one's end.... Thus, as far as we are concerned, we should not want health more than illness, wealth more than poverty, fame more than disgrace, a long life more than a short one, and similarly for all the rest, but we should desire and choose only what helps us more towards the end for which we are created."
Seven77 Posted February 19, 2011 Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' timestamp='1298076932' post='2213726'] I think your statement is aiming towards something good; however, it seems to me to be lacking. I think St. Ignatius Loyola put it best in his writings concerning the foundation of the Society of Jesus. "[b]The First Principle and Foundation[/b] The human person is created to praise, reverence, and serve God Our Lord, and by doing so, to save his or her soul. All other things on the face of the earth are created for human beings in order to help them pursue the end for which they are created. It follows from this that one must use other created things, in so far as they help towards one's end, and free oneself from them, in so far as they are obstacles to one's end.... Thus, as far as we are concerned, we should not want health more than illness, wealth more than poverty, fame more than disgrace, a long life more than a short one, and similarly for all the rest, but we should desire and choose only what helps us more towards the end for which we are created." [/quote] A\/\/esome. St. Ignatius pray for us!
Nihil Obstat Posted February 19, 2011 Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1298069165' post='2213698'] One can still contemplate God in reflecting on being able to make such choices. I do not believe there is anything in this life that does not point toward or direct us away from God with some reflection. Now surely we can go about making mindless choices, not thinking about God, but I do believe that in everything we can marvel at his goodness. In everything we can neglect him. If we fail to acknowledge him in some thing or contemplate him it seems to me we have missed an opportunity to grow. [/quote] You can certainly contemplate God in having the choice, but one choice or the other is morally neutral. Cheerios versus Corn Flakes is a morally neutral choice, though the choice itself is good.
thessalonian Posted February 19, 2011 Author Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1298092393' post='2213769'] You can certainly contemplate God in having the choice, but one choice or the other is morally neutral. Cheerios versus Corn Flakes is a morally neutral choice, though the choice itself is good. [/quote] I said I wasn't limiting it to morality.
Hinter dem Horizont Posted February 19, 2011 Posted February 19, 2011 It's a good question because the world out there is a dangerous place even among other Catholics. What does it mean to live authentically Catholic? Many Catholics probably don't even know the answer to the question. If you're a parent sending a child off to a school that isn't wholly Catholic then the child is at risk to be involved with children and teachers that are against the nature of Catholicism. However, we must also be involved with other religions in order to surely know what ours is all about. This is only for educational purposes of course. Parents have a duty to make their home's foundations completely Catholic so that the influences on the outside world are less affective. That way, the child is aware of what is inappropriate.
thessalonian Posted February 19, 2011 Author Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' timestamp='1298076932' post='2213726'] I think your statement is aiming towards something good; however, it seems to me to be lacking. I think St. Ignatius Loyola put it best in his writings concerning the foundation of the Society of Jesus. "[b]The First Principle and Foundation[/b] The human person is created to praise, reverence, and serve God Our Lord, and by doing so, to save his or her soul. All other things on the face of the earth are created for human beings in order to help them pursue the end for which they are created. It follows from this that one must use other created things, in so far as they help towards one's end, and free oneself from them, in so far as they are obstacles to one's end.... Thus, as far as we are concerned, we should not want health more than illness, wealth more than poverty, fame more than disgrace, a long life more than a short one, and similarly for all the rest, but we should desire and choose only what helps us more towards the end for which we are created." [/quote] Thank you for that. I agree of course. I think however that it is completely consistent with what I have said and so I still don't see the statement as lacking.
thessalonian Posted February 19, 2011 Author Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1298039945' post='2213571'] define authentically catholic? [/quote] The faith handed down from Christ and his apostles through the bishops to today. Probably best summed up in the Catechism of the CC.
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam Posted February 19, 2011 Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) [quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1298137549' post='2213854'] Thank you for that. I agree of course. I think however that it is completely consistent with what I have said and so I still don't see the statement as lacking. [/quote] Your statement is lacking because of the way it is framed. "Everything AUTHENTICALLY Catholic brings us closer to salvation, everything not Catholic works against our salvation." The way St. Ignatius frames it is that one object can for one person bring them closer to God in that they use it correctly to fulfill their created purpose to know, love, and serve Him while at the same time that same object may be a hindrance to another person and as such to be avoided until they have built up the virtue to us it correctly. The problem is not whether the object is "authentically Catholic" but rather it is whether the individual can use the object virtuously/has built up a proper disposition towards this part of creation. St. Ignatius also notes that all of creation was inherently created for a purpose and it is this purpose which gives objects their ability to bring us closer to salvation, not the fact that somethings are created as "authentically Catholic" and other things are not (I don't even know what that would mean for things to be created that way). As such, the way St. Ignatius frames the question highlights the necessity of our response to God's gift of creation, and that if we fall it is not because God created the object imperfectly. Things are a problem for us not because objects are somehow lacking some kind of "authentic Catholicity" but rather because we use them in a way that was contrary both to our nature and the purpose for which such an object was given to us by God. The fault lies in us rather than some defect in the created object. The object is not to be despised as faulty, but rather the fault in us is what is to be remedied. Thus we are to form ourselves so that we may only value one thing over another insofar as they help us fulfill our created purpose, not because one object is "Catholic" and one is "not." Besides how could either long, short, or medium length of life be "authentically Catholic" or not? God can be seen in [b]all[/b] of creation, it is on us to respond to this natural revelation that God exists. Edited February 19, 2011 by Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam
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