Canada Health Care To Starve Innocent Baby.

[emilier98]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1300577719' post='2221828']
So, who's becoming a doctor and providing free health care?
[/quote]

I'm joining the Dominicans and I'll be a psychologist and I'll provide free and low cost mental health treatment.

Does that work?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1300560099' post='2221757']
Dear World,

I think everyone should have access to affordable, quality healthcare.
Can someone please figure out how to do that?
Thanks in advance.

Sincerely,
Ice-9
XOXOXO
[/quote]
We did! not so many years ago, but due to lack of resources and medical professionals it is rapidly declining. Peoples are dying on waiting lists for ops. I don't really know if the system just doesn't work or if it is due to government incompetence which seems to be on the agenda at the moment.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[Ed Normile]

Audrey,
I am not trying to argue with you but you are wrong. No matter how you try to spin your argument you will not get turned down for healthcare or medications, [b]if [/b]you ask for help. I guess you did not even click on the links I posted, they would have shown you dozens of programs from dozens of different companies that will help with meds. I said you called me a liar, I guess you never did outright call me a liar, I took it that way from the sentence which I posted that your wrote, the one I bolded for clarification, the one where you said my claim was ridiculous. I already proved you wrong, I have nothing else to prove to you as you obviously refuse to acknowledge what is written before your eyes.

The thing I wrote about ask and you shall receive, that was to point out that you have to look for help sometimes, I remember an old saying, God helps those who help themselves. If I had a serious problem and they did not offer me help I would not just walk away desponded with a victim mentality, I would seek help, its out there if you look for it.

Someone mentioned the homeless in an inane attempt to bolster their argument here, in America there would be no homeless if they did not want to be homeless. There are shelters and programs to help these people, many do not want help. Many are mentally ill, the only option in their case would be to institutionalize these people, which would be akin to jailing them against their will. The homeless can apply to hundreds of government programs, there is even the ex President Jimmy Carter program Habitat for Humanity, all he asks is that you help build the house and spend some time volunteering on the building of another home, if you are physically able. I am no ex President Jimmy Carter fan, but he does help the homeless and this is a fine project, although he does not go out and force those who do not want or seek help to participate in his project. This is a free country, and part of that freedom is the right to live a self destructive lifestyle as long as it does not infringe on anothers personal freedoms.

I am sure there were those who thought that John the Baptist was mentally ill living in the desert and eating honey and locusts but that was his calling at the time, at least he was not forced into a mental institution for his own good. Throughout history there have been hermits and monks who have lived a life at their choice that would seem to those around them as mentally unstable, Joan of Arc was considered menatlly ill by those who persecuted her, I am sure that Saint Francis of Assisi was probably thought of the same way taking into consideration the life he forsook to live like a hermit, my point, who are we to judge if the homeless who want to live under a bridge and eat from a garbarge dumpster are crazy and lock them up. What I am trying to convey is that if any of these homeless want help, all they have to do is seek it, the same as any who need medical help need to do.


ed

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1301025326' post='2223120']
Audrey,
I am not trying to argue with you but you are wrong. No matter how you try to spin your argument you will not get turned down for healthcare or medications, [b]if [/b]you ask for help. I guess you did not even click on the links I posted, they would have shown you dozens of programs from dozens of different companies that will help with meds. I said you called me a liar, I guess you never did outright call me a liar, I took it that way from the sentence which I posted that your wrote, the one I bolded for clarification, the one where you said my claim was ridiculous. I already proved you wrong, I have nothing else to prove to you as you obviously refuse to acknowledge what is written before your eyes.

The thing I wrote about ask and you shall receive, that was to point out that you have to look for help sometimes, I remember an old saying, God helps those who help themselves. If I had a serious problem and they did not offer me help I would not just walk away desponded with a victim mentality, I would seek help, its out there if you look for it.

Someone mentioned the homeless in an inane attempt to bolster their argument here, in America there would be no homeless if they did not want to be homeless. There are shelters and programs to help these people, many do not want help. Many are mentally ill, the only option in their case would be to institutionalize these people, which would be akin to jailing them against their will. The homeless can apply to hundreds of government programs, there is even the ex President Jimmy Carter program Habitat for Humanity, all he asks is that you help build the house and spend some time volunteering on the building of another home, if you are physically able. I am no ex President Jimmy Carter fan, but he does help the homeless and this is a fine project, although he does not go out and force those who do not want or seek help to participate in his project. This is a free country, and part of that freedom is the right to live a self destructive lifestyle as long as it does not infringe on anothers personal freedoms.

I am sure there were those who thought that John the Baptist was mentally ill living in the desert and eating honey and locusts but that was his calling at the time, at least he was not forced into a mental institution for his own good. Throughout history there have been hermits and monks who have lived a life at their choice that would seem to those around them as mentally unstable, Joan of Arc was considered menatlly ill by those who persecuted her, I am sure that Saint Francis of Assisi was probably thought of the same way taking into consideration the life he forsook to live like a hermit, my point, who are we to judge if the homeless who want to live under a bridge and eat from a garbarge dumpster are crazy and lock them up. What I am trying to convey is that if any of these homeless want help, all they have to do is seek it, the same as any who need medical help need to do.


ed
[/quote]


there would be no homeless problem if people did not want to be homeless. this has to be the most clueless statement in this thread. this shows a true lack of insite on the homelessness problem.

Edited March 25, 2011 by havok579257

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1301055023' post='2223167']
there would be no homeless problem if people did not want to be homeless. this has to be the most clueless statement in this thread. this shows a true lack of insite on the homelessness problem.
[/quote]

Gee thank you for your kind words. I guess you are clueless to the many programs in each state, and every major city aimed at providing shelter and yes, even homes for homeless people? In my experience with homeless many refuse the help, they do not want to be tied to a home or program and actually choose to live on the streets or in the parks or homeless camps. Of course you with your vast experience with the homeless you probably should clue me in on the facts so I am no longer clueless about these people. I could always benefit from your [b]Insight.[/b]

ed

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1301055023' post='2223167']
there would be no homeless problem if people did not want to be homeless. this has to be the most clueless statement in this thread. this shows a true lack of insite on the homelessness problem.
[/quote]


Just some facts for you to consider Havok,

In November of 2010 there was currently 27 federal programs spending just over 1.2 Billion dollars yearly on programs to help the homeless, at least those who accept the help. In Florida alone as of January 19 2011 there is 321 programs to help the homeless which just received a grant from H.U.D. or the U.S. Housing and Urban Development, a grant totaling $71,389,061 in U.S. dollars to help the homeless that choose to avail themselves of this help. I am sure you can do a search state to state and see the money and programs available to help homeless people if you care to gain some [b]Insight [/b]into this issue. You may wonder with all the money and programs than why are there so many homeless, although the U.S. homeless numbers have actually dropped by a meager amount this year, just over 1.2 % there are still millions of homeless. The reason is that most of these people who refuse help are either substance abusers or are mentally unstable individuals who refuse and even fear the help available.

ed

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1301369425' post='2224122']
Just some facts for you to consider Havok,

In November of 2010 there was currently 27 federal programs spending just over 1.2 Billion dollars yearly on programs to help the homeless, at least those who accept the help. In Florida alone as of January 19 2011 there is 321 programs to help the homeless which just received a grant from H.U.D. or the U.S. Housing and Urban Development, a grant totaling $71,389,061 in U.S. dollars to help the homeless that choose to avail themselves of this help. I am sure you can do a search state to state and see the money and programs available to help homeless people if you care to gain some [b]Insight [/b]into this issue. You may wonder with all the money and programs than why are there so many homeless, although the U.S. homeless numbers have actually dropped by a meager amount this year, just over 1.2 % there are still millions of homeless. The reason is that most of these people who refuse help are either substance abusers or are mentally unstable individuals who refuse and even fear the help available.

ed
[/quote]

how is someone who can not afford their psych meds supposed to get on these programs since when not on thier meds, they are not capable of getting these programs?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1301367993' post='2224116']
Gee thank you for your kind words. I guess you are clueless to the many programs in each state, and every major city aimed at providing shelter and yes, even homes for homeless people? In my experience with homeless many refuse the help, they do not want to be tied to a home or program and actually choose to live on the streets or in the parks or homeless camps. Of course you with your vast experience with the homeless you probably should clue me in on the facts so I am no longer clueless about these people. I could always benefit from your [b]Insight.[/b]

ed
[/quote]


its real simple. the majority of homeless people have some sort of psych issue. meaning they need to consistantly be on medication so they can function properly in society. the way the healthcare system is set up now is, someone with psych issues is medically cleared to go to a psych facility. they keep them at the psych facility until they can get them on some medication that straighten them out and then they discharge them with a prescription for more psych medication. so the person has been discharged, has no place to stay and no money for medication. with in a very short time, their medication wears off and they are mentally unable to continue on with getting help for moeny/home/more medication. very soon they are back to sqaure one.

and my experience is the fact that in the 3 short years i have been at my job, i have directly seen/treated/helped more homeless people than most people will in thier life.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1301453695' post='2224550']
its real simple. the majority of homeless people have some sort of psych issue. meaning they need to consistantly be on medication so they can function properly in society. the way the healthcare system is set up now is, someone with psych issues is medically cleared to go to a psych facility. they keep them at the psych facility until they can get them on some medication that straighten them out and then they discharge them with a prescription for more psych medication. so the person has been discharged, has no place to stay and no money for medication. with in a very short time, their medication wears off and they are mentally unable to continue on with getting help for moeny/home/more medication. very soon they are back to sqaure one.

and my experience is the fact that in the 3 short years i have been at my job, i have directly seen/treated/helped more homeless people than most people will in thier life.
[/quote]


So you work in a field to help homeless who are on pysch medication and have no clue that there are programs , not only federal, but programs by every major pharmeceutical company to provide medications for those who can not afford to pay for the meds themselves? I would assume that the very people being paid to help these people would know of the programs that are avaialble to help these people, perhaps that is where the real problem lies. I would suggest you do a quick web search, it may be helpful to those you are supposed to be helping, or you can just scroll back in this thread here and see the links I posted for another clueless person here.

ed

[Jesus_lol]

Man, Ed, how long are you gonna stay in this thread continuing to assert that you know more about peoples jobs than they do themselves? They have pointed out some severe flaws in the system and you go "wow funny you have been a medical professional for 4 years and still dont know about how there is a system to fix these problems?" The problem is the system.

also, if these government systems are the answer to all these problems, then why are you against a healthcare system with more government involvement?

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1301466397' post='2224626']
Man, Ed, how long are you gonna stay in this thread continuing to assert that you know more about peoples jobs than they do themselves? They have pointed out some severe flaws in the system and you go "wow funny you have been a medical professional for 4 years and still dont know about how there is a system to fix these problems?" The problem is the system.

also, if these government systems are the answer to all these problems, then why are you against a healthcare system with more government involvement?
[/quote]

J-lOl, wow I guess these programs do not exist! How long are you going to assert this even though they can be readily found online, on the TV, and have been offered to me by a pharmicist and a doctor? Is the problem really the system, or the people who refuse to help themselves, or the people who refuse to help others. I am not looking for an argument here as you seem to be, I have posted the links, I have had need to take advantage of these programs and I know of others who have too. They do exist, and are available to those who seek to avail themselves of them. I am not blind or stupid, I know there are women who have children who do not eat properly as they do not take advantage of programs like foodstamps and WIC, they are those who either do not know of programs to receive meds for free or at low cost to help with prescription prices or for some reason do not avail themselves of this help. There are programs to help with home loss, if people do not take advantage of these programs it does not mean that they are not available. I am certain you can click on the links I provided in this thread, unless as I said earlier you are just looking to cause an argument or demean me by making ridiculous accusations that I said I know more about anyones job? Try to act like a mature adult and look at these programs and then admit, at least to yourself, that they do exist.

This argument is beginning to sound like the potheads who argue here that pot should be legal and is only sinful as its not legal?

I almost forgot to address the last sentence of your rant, the healthcare law, or Obama care is illegal, its unconstitutional as it breaks the Federal Commerce Law, which does not allow for the government to force anyone to buy a product essentially for life by mandate of the government. This is so easy to understand I am sure anyone could grasp it. Here is a link to a Washington Times article that spells it out so even the very young or very naive can figure it out. [url="http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jan/31/obamacare-unconstitutional/"]Washington Times article on Obama unconstitutionality[/url] At least take the time to read this before you accuse me again of some imagined prejudice or slight of a person or persons.

ed

Edited March 30, 2011 by Ed Normile

[Ed Normile]

Since this thread was originally about a child being murdered due to the Canadian health care systems unwillingness to spend anymore on baby Joseph's medical treatment, and subsequently was turned into a spiteful attack on American healthcare system, the homeless problem and the price of medication, and of course attacks on me a personally, I felt I should update the original thread format with the news that baby Joseph is receiving help at an American hospital, has received his treatment, that the parents wanted, will be transfered to another hospital and will soon be going home to live with his parents, this all from being saved by Father Frank and priests for Life org. despite Canada's health care system deciding to remove his feeding tube and let him starve to death!.

Not bad American health care system, not bad at all.

ed

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1301527366' post='2224829']
Since this thread was originally about a child being murdered due to the Canadian health care systems unwillingness to spend anymore on baby Joseph's medical treatment, and subsequently was turned into a spiteful attack on American healthcare system, the homeless problem and the price of medication, and of course attacks on me a personally, I felt I should update the original thread format with the news that baby Joseph is receiving help at an American hospital, has received his treatment, that the parents wanted, will be transfered to another hospital and will soon be going home to live with his parents, this all from being saved by Father Frank and priests for Life org. despite Canada's health care system deciding to remove his feeding tube and let him starve to death!.

Not bad American health care system, not bad at all.

ed
[/quote]

But the baby is still terminally ill, right? I don't believe anyone should be starved to death but I don't know if the procedure accomplished anything besides prolonging his life and prolonging suffering.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1301533067' post='2224871']
But the baby is still terminally ill, right? I don't believe anyone should be starved to death but I don't know if the procedure accomplished anything besides prolonging his life and prolonging suffering.
[/quote]

According to Father Franks update baby Joseph is responding well to the treatment and will be going home, he never mentioned him being terminal still, I do not know anymore besides that, in any case baby Joseph would have been forced to starve to death without the intervention, and against the wishes of his parents. do you feel that people suffer through God's will for a reason, do you feel its right for man to decide when a baby has suffered enough to supercede the will of God. If this baby dies there will be those here who parade their christianity that will say all Father Frank did was prolong the suffering of this baby, and see the Canadian health system was right afterall, I for one will be happy that this child was allowed a chance at living, a chance that he was to be denied in the most inhumane of ways, by starving to death, to save the Canadian socialized health care system a few extra dollars. And if he does return home to live his life out, be it for a week or hopefully many years I will say a prayer each time I think of this child for his parents and Priests for life and another for all those killed to cut costs.

ed

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1301539369' post='2224931']
According to Father Franks update baby Joseph is responding well to the treatment and will be going home, he never mentioned him being terminal still, I do not know anymore besides that, in any case baby Joseph would have been forced to starve to death without the intervention, and against the wishes of his parents. do you feel that people suffer through God's will for a reason, do you feel its right for man to decide when a baby has suffered enough to supercede the will of God. If this baby dies there will be those here who parade their christianity that will say all Father Frank did was prolong the suffering of this baby, and see the Canadian health system was right afterall, I for one will be happy that this child was allowed a chance at living, a chance that he was to be denied in the most inhumane of ways, by starving to death, to save the Canadian socialized health care system a few extra dollars. And if he does return home to live his life out, be it for a week or hopefully many years I will say a prayer each time I think of this child for his parents and Priests for life and another for all those killed to cut costs.

ed
[/quote]


they just had an article about this. the baby is terminally ill and the procedure did not do anything to treat his disease.

i am not saying what father frank did was wrong, i would do the same thing with my son. although the fact is the baby is terminally ill and the procedure did nothing treat his disease or extend his life.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1301454478' post='2224565']
So you work in a field to help homeless who are on pysch medication and have no clue that there are programs , not only federal, but programs by every major pharmeceutical company to provide medications for those who can not afford to pay for the meds themselves? I would assume that the very people being paid to help these people would know of the programs that are avaialble to help these people, perhaps that is where the real problem lies. I would suggest you do a quick web search, it may be helpful to those you are supposed to be helping, or you can just scroll back in this thread here and see the links I posted for another clueless person here.

ed
[/quote]


so all the people living on the streets who are schitzophrenic or have personality disorders or who are bi polar are only on the streets and off their medication because they are lazy and don't want help. so when i am called to a homeless person who can't feel his fingers or toes, who is ice cold to the touch, who doesn't know what's going on or comprhend the world around them, they are just like this because they are lazy and don't want help.

you have no clue, absolutly no clue what its like on the streets when its 5 degrees with a windchill of -10 degrees do you? you have no clue what its like to not be able to comprehend the world around you because your schitzophrenic. you really have no clue what people go through every day of their lives, people who don't get all the breaks.

since you are so sure about everything, i must ask, are you in the medical field? do you daily help the homeless population? do you personally interact with them day to day? cause the way you talk, you act like you have so much first hand knowledge of the medical field and the homeless population. so what exactly do you do in these fields?

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1301544186' post='2224960']
so all the people living on the streets who are [b]schitzophrenic[/b] or have personality disorders or who are [b]bi pola[/b]r are only on the streets and off their medication because they are lazy and don't want help. so when i am called to a homeless person who can't feel his fingers or toes, who is ice cold to the touch, who doesn't know what's going on or comprhend the world around them, they are just like this because they are lazy and don't want help.

you have no clue, absolutly no clue what its like on the streets when its 5 degrees with a windchill of -10 degrees do you? you have no clue what its like to not be able to comprehend the world around you because your schitzophrenic. you really have no clue what people go through every day of their lives, people who don't get all the breaks.

since you are so sure about everything, i must ask, are you in the medical field? do you daily help the homeless population? do you personally interact with them day to day? cause the way you talk, you act like you have so much first hand knowledge of the medical field and the homeless population. so what exactly do you do in these fields?
[/quote]

You are not only rude and condescending but extremely crass, and outright libelous. I am sure your parents would be proud of the way you take an argument and misrepresent what has been said to suit your point, you would make a fine politician. Look back and quote where I ever categorized "all the people living on the streets who are [u]schizophrenic[/u] or have personality disorders or who are [u]bipolar[/u] " as lazy? As a matter of fact I never diagnosed them at all, I simply stated they had not or would not take advantage of these programs, I even said they either did not know of them or were not told of them while adding that they were indeed out there, refuting your original point which was that they did not exist, I guess when you were proved wrong your panties got in a bind and you became angry. Man you are really out there, and by the way your spelling is atrocious for one who works in the medical profession and your sentence structure is not much better.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot to answer your last rant again, I am not now, nor never have been sure about everything, but I am certain that I am not in the medical profession, and I also have a feeling you are not either. It would seem to me that anyone with medical training could spell schizophrenic and bipolar properly, you misspelled schizophrenic twice in your rant, absolutely would seem in the realm of medically trained persons vocabulary as well as the term comprehend would be. It would not hurt you argument either to capitalize the first letter of any word that begins a sentence. Now that I have placed myself on your level, only using a scant more tact, how does it feel to be attacked for voicing an opinion?

ed

Edited March 31, 2011 by Ed Normile

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1301543560' post='2224958']
they just had an article about this. the baby is terminally ill and the procedure did not do anything to treat his disease.

i am not saying what father frank did was wrong, i would do the same thing with my son. although the fact is the baby is terminally ill and the procedure did nothing treat his disease or extend his life.
[/quote]

Actually, teh crux of the matter was that Canadas health care system had determined that baby Joseph was in a Persistent Vegetative State, and had no chance to improve and they planned to remove him from a ventilator and remove his feeding tube to "facillitate" his death.

Doctors at Cardinal Glennon Childrens medical center in St Louis Mo. found "After a thorough examination and consultation with his parents and the hospital’s ethics committee, physicians at Cardinal Glennon Hospital said in a statement, “We concluded that a tracheotomy was medically appropriate.” Baby Joseph, who turned 14 months old on March 22, has Leigh syndrome, a genetic neurological disease that is progressive and has no cure. He is not in a PVS." the last sentence was the most telling, he is not in a Persistent vegetative state, the Canadian courts had backed the doctors decision to remove his tubes and issue a do not resuscitate order back on Feb 17, this baby would have been long dead by now, thank God for Father Frank and the treatment he received here in America. he is scheduled to stay put for another week or so and will return home to live out his life according to God's will.

This is a link to the article about this babies condition. [url="http://www.nationalrighttolifenews.org/news/2011/03/an-update-on-baby-joseph-expected-to-leave-hospital-soon-for-pediatric-specialty-hospital/"]baby josephs condition[/url]

ed

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1301545300' post='2224970']
You are not only rude and condescending but extremely crass, and outright libelous. I am sure your parents would be proud of the way you take an argument and misrepresent what has been said to suit your point, you would make a fine politician. Look back and quote where I ever categorized "all the people living on the streets who are [u]schizophrenic[/u] or have personality disorders or who are [u]bipolar[/u] " as lazy? As a matter of fact I never diagnosed them at all, I simply stated they had not or would not take advantage of these programs, I even said they either did not know of them or were not told of them while adding that they were indeed out there, refuting your original point which was that they did not exist, I guess when you were proved wrong your panties got in a bind and you became angry. Man you are really out there, and by the way your spelling is atrocious for one who works in the medical profession and your sentence structure is not much better.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot to answer your last rant again, I am not now, nor never have been sure about everything, but I am certain that I am not in the medical profession, and I also have a feeling you are not either. It would seem to me that anyone with medical training could spell schizophrenic and bipolar properly, you misspelled schizophrenic twice in your rant, absolutely would seem in the realm of medically trained persons vocabulary as well as the term comprehend would be. It would not hurt you argument either to capitalize the first letter of any word that begins a sentence. Now that I have placed myself on your level, only using a scant more tact, how does it feel to be attacked for voicing an opinion?

ed
[/quote]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0[/media]

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1301545300' post='2224970']
You are not only rude and condescending but extremely crass, and outright libelous. I am sure your parents would be proud of the way you take an argument and misrepresent what has been said to suit your point, you would make a fine politician. Look back and quote where I ever categorized "all the people living on the streets who are [u]schizophrenic[/u] or have personality disorders or who are [u]bipolar[/u] " as lazy? As a matter of fact I never diagnosed them at all, I simply stated they had not or would not take advantage of these programs, I even said they either did not know of them or were not told of them while adding that they were indeed out there, refuting your original point which was that they did not exist, I guess when you were proved wrong your panties got in a bind and you became angry. Man you are really out there, and by the way your spelling is atrocious for one who works in the medical profession and your sentence structure is not much better.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot to answer your last rant again, I am not now, nor never have been sure about everything, but I am certain that I am not in the medical profession, and I also have a feeling you are not either. It would seem to me that anyone with medical training could spell schizophrenic and bipolar properly, you misspelled schizophrenic twice in your rant, absolutely would seem in the realm of medically trained persons vocabulary as well as the term comprehend would be. It would not hurt you argument either to capitalize the first letter of any word that begins a sentence. Now that I have placed myself on your level, only using a scant more tact, how does it feel to be attacked for voicing an opinion?

ed
[/quote]




feel better? since this has degraded to this, i will take the high road and leave the conversation.

May God bless you. Have a wonderful day.