Ban On The Islamic Face Veil

[Amppax]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1304087394' post='2234580']
[img]http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh165/hamburgerpatty_2008/burkini.jpg[/img]
[/quote]


Oh my.... [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif[/img]

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1303845438' post='2233502']
ok, have it your way:

[i]
Dear Ed,

Mohammad's wives did not wear [s]burqas[/s] face-veils. They wore abaya - this is like a long dress. Only later did they add a veil (headcover), and when they did it was in imitation of the Christians. [/i]

better now?
[/quote]

Not really, but thanks anyway, perhaps you have some citations to prove the point you are trying to make? It has been many years since I studied anything about Islam, at least thrirty years to be certain, I do remember that the facial covering was a mandate by their prophet Mohhamed, I would think he would have had his wives wear them too, but if you have proof I will accept it.

ed

[Amppax]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1304091781' post='2234597']
Not really, but thanks anyway, perhaps you have some citations to prove the point you are trying to make? It has been many years since I studied anything about Islam, at least thrirty years to be certain, I do remember that the facial covering was a mandate by their prophet Mohhamed, I would think he would have had his wives wear them too, but if you have proof I will accept it.

ed
[/quote]

Here (quote from wikipedia without source...take with a grain of salt):

[quote][font="sans-serif"][size="2"][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Esposito"]John Esposito[/url], professor of Islamic Studies at [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgetown_University"]Georgetown University[/url], writes that the customs of veiling and seclusion of women in early Islam were assimilated from the conquered [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Empire"]Persian[/url] and[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire"]Byzantine[/url] societies and then later on they were viewed as appropriate expressions of Quranic norms and values.[/size][/font][/quote]

also, there is nothing in the Qur'an that specifically mandates the face being covered (at least that is my understanding, i don't consider myself well versed in the Qur'an) the verse in the Qur'an that people point to for information on the hijab is this:

[quote][font="sans-serif"][size="2"]And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khimar"][color="#000000"]khima[/color][/url][color="#000000"][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khimar"][color="#000000"]r[/color][/url] o[/color]ver their bosoms and not display their beauty except to [...] ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an"]Qur'an[/url] [url="http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/024.qmt.html#024.031"]24:31[/url])[/size][/font][/quote]

which is really just a call to basic modesty, it says nothing about the face per se.

Can't really see anything right know that Mohammad said about a face veil...but there is that. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/like.gif[/img]

Edited April 29, 2011 by Amppax

[RezaMikhaeil]

[i][quote]Mohammad's wives did not wear burqas face-veils. They wore abaya - this is like a long dress. Only later did they add a veil (headcover), and when they did it was in imitation of the Christians.
[/quote]

[/i][quote]Not really, but thanks anyway, perhaps you have some citations to prove the point you are trying to make? It has been many years since I studied anything about Islam, at least thrirty years to be certain, I do remember that the facial covering was a mandate by their prophet Mohhamed, I would think he would have had his wives wear them too, but if you have proof I will accept it.
[/quote]

[quote] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Esposito"][color="#b4453b"]John Esposito[/color][/url], professor of Islamic Studies at [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgetown_University"][color="#b4453b"]Georgetown University[/color][/url], writes that the customs of veiling and seclusion of women in early Islam were assimilated from the conquered [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Empire"][color="#b4453b"]Persian[/color][/url] and[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire"][color="#b4453b"]Byzantine[/color][/url] societies and then later on they were viewed as appropriate expressions of Quranic norms and values.[/quote]

[quote]also, there is nothing in the Qur'an that specifically mandates the face being covered (at least that is my understanding, i don't consider myself well versed in the Qur'an) the verse in the Qur'an that people point to for information on the hijab is this: And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khimar"]khima[/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khimar"]r[/url] over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to [...] ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an"][color="#b4453b"]Qur'an[/color][/url] [url="http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/024.qmt.html#024.031"][color="#b4453b"]24:31[/color][/url])
which is really just a call to basic modesty, it says nothing about the face per se.

Can't really see anything right know that Mohammad said about a face veil...but there is that.
[/quote]

You're correct to say that there is nothing in the Qur'an that mentions it and that it was practiced by some Christian groups before Muslims. However that doesn't end the debate. Muslims follow the Sunnah, which are the habits - customs - and usual behavior of Muhammad. Much of that is recorded within the Hadiths, that are not considered as reliable as the Qur'an but still hold authority. If I were to make a comparison, it would be like saying that Catholics believe in the Bible but also take instruction from the Catechism. Just as the Catechism helps to clarify some verses that are often misunderstood in the Bible [particularly amongst Protestant groups], so does the Hadith help clarify verses in the Qur'an that may be general, or not clear.

Hadiths are classified into categories according to authenticity/reliability. It's a known fact that the [color="#0645ad"]Sahih Bukhari[/color] hadiths are considered the most reliable.

[size="3"][i]Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Hadith # 282[/i]
[color="#000000"]Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba [i]([/i][font="Times New Roman,Times"][i]Radhiallaahu Ánha)[/i] [/font]"Aisha [i]([/i][font="Times New Roman,Times"][i]Radhiallaahu Ánha)[/i] [/font]used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and[u] covered their faces[/u] with the cut pieces.[/color] [/size][size="3"][i]Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Hadith # 368[/i]
[/size][color="#000000"][size="3"]Narrated 'Aisha [i]([font="Times New Roman,Times"]Radhiallaahu Ánha)[/font][/i][/size][font="Times New Roman,Times"][size="3"] Rasulullah [i](Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam)[/i] used to offer the Fajr prayer and some[u] believing women covered with their veiling sheet[/u]s used to attend the Fajr prayer with him and then they would return to their homes [u]unrecognized [/u].

[/size]

[size="3"][i]Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Hadith # 148[/i]
[color="#000000"]Narrated 'Aisha [i]([font="Times New Roman,Times"]Radhiallaahu Ánha)[/font][/i][font="Times New Roman,Times"]: The wives of Rasulullah [i](Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam)[/i] used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Rasulullah [i](Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) [/i]did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab [i](the observing of veils by the Muslim women) [/i]may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab"[i] ([u]A complete body cover excluding the eyes)[/u].[/i][/font][/color]

Now comes the question, do these verses drive the final nail into the coffin on this issue? No, they do not - scholars have continued to debate this issue and shall continue to do so in the years to come. The most popular opinion amongst conservative Muslims is that it's not a requirement of a Muslim [woman] but that it's highly encouraged or recommended. However there still are very highly respected Muslim clerics from Al-Azhar university [the most respected in all of Sunni Islam] that doubt the authenticity of these Hadiths and their application today. Muhammad Sayyid Tantawy , the highest ranking cleric at Al-Azhar, who wrote a Tasfir [or commentary on the Qur'an] that took him over a decade to put together, believed it to be unIslamic, a pre-Islamic tribal custom, just as female circumcision, which he also took a stand against as unislamic.[/size][size="+2"]

[/size][size="3"]Note: I'm not saying that John Esposito, the Roman Catholic and George Town University Professor is wrong, he has his own conclusions, which I highly respect. I actually really enjoyed his book that he wrote with Dalia Mogahed, but his conclusions also do not settle the issue.[/size][/font][/color]

As far as the verse from the Qur'an being just a "basic call to modesty", that's incorrect. Nearly all scholars within Islam still believe that it requires the headscarf to be worm by Muslim women. This is almost impossible to irrefute as a result. The term "Khimar" is the only term that appears in the Qur'an, but what is a Khimar? It's a headscarf that is wore, which drapes down over the upper chest of a woman, to about her waist. It's still a very conservative piece of clothing that is worn, so as not to reduce the verse to just a common modesty.

Edited April 29, 2011 by RezaMikhaeil

[Amppax]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1304098673' post='2234660']
[i]

[/i]





You're correct to say that there is nothing in the Qur'an that mentions it and that it was practiced by some Christian groups before Muslims. However that doesn't end the debate. Muslims follow the Sunnah, which are the habits - customs - and usual behavior of Muhammad. Much of that is recorded within the Hadiths, that are not considered as reliable as the Qur'an but still hold authority. If I were to make a comparison, it would be like saying that Catholics believe in the Bible but also take instruction from the Catechism. Just as the Catechism helps to clarify some verses that are often misunderstood in the Bible [particularly amongst Protestant groups], so does the Hadith help clarify verses in the Qur'an that may be general, or not clear.

Hadiths are classified into categories according to authenticity/reliability. It's a known fact that the [color="#0645ad"]Sahih Bukhari[/color] hadiths are considered the most reliable.

[size="3"][i]Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Hadith # 282[/i]
[color="#000000"]Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba [i]([/i][font="Times New Roman,Times"][i]Radhiallaahu Ánha)[/i] [/font]"Aisha [i]([/i][font="Times New Roman,Times"][i]Radhiallaahu Ánha)[/i] [/font]used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and[u] covered their faces[/u] with the cut pieces.[/color] [/size][size="3"][i]Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Hadith # 368[/i]
[/size][color="#000000"][size="3"]Narrated 'Aisha [i]([font="Times New Roman,Times"]Radhiallaahu Ánha)[/font][/i][/size][font="Times New Roman,Times"][size="3"] Rasulullah [i](Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam)[/i] used to offer the Fajr prayer and some[u] believing women covered with their veiling sheet[/u]s used to attend the Fajr prayer with him and then they would return to their homes [u]unrecognized [/u].

[/size]

[size="3"][i]Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Hadith # 148[/i]
[color="#000000"]Narrated 'Aisha [i]([font="Times New Roman,Times"]Radhiallaahu Ánha)[/font][/i][font="Times New Roman,Times"]: The wives of Rasulullah [i](Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam)[/i] used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Rasulullah [i](Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) [/i]did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab [i](the observing of veils by the Muslim women) [/i]may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab"[i] ([u]A complete body cover excluding the eyes)[/u].[/i][/font][/color]

Now comes the question, do these verses drive the final nail into the coffin on this issue? No, they do not - scholars have continued to debate this issue and shall continue to do so in the years to come. The most popular opinion amongst conservative Muslims is that it's not a requirement of a Muslim [woman] but that it's highly encouraged or recommended. However there still are very highly respected Muslim clerics from Al-Azhar university [the most respected in all of Sunni Islam] that doubt the authenticity of these Hadiths and their application today. Muhammad Sayyid Tantawy , the highest ranking cleric at Al-Azhar, who wrote a Tasfir [or commentary on the Qur'an] that took him over a decade to put together, believed it to be unIslamic, a pre-Islamic tribal custom, just as female circumcision, which he also took a stand against as unislamic.[/size][size="+2"]

[/size][size="3"]Note: I'm not saying that John Esposito, the Roman Catholic and George Town University Professor is wrong, he has his own conclusions, which I highly respect. I actually really enjoyed his book that he wrote with Dalia Mogahed, but his conclusions also do not settle the issue.[/size][/font][/color]

As far as the verse from the Qur'an being just a "basic call to modesty", that's incorrect. Nearly all scholars within Islam still believe that it requires the headscarf to be worm by Muslim women. This is almost impossible to irrefute as a result. The term "Khimar" is the only term that appears in the Qur'an, but what is a Khimar? It's a headscarf that is wore, which drapes down over the upper chest of a woman, to about her waist. It's still a very conservative piece of clothing that is worn, so as not to reduce the verse to just a common modesty.
[/quote]

I will defer to your superior knowledge, thanks. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/like.gif[/img]

[philothea]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1304050739' post='2234463']
Wouldn't ya know, I actually agree with you! But I still have a problem with the law. Is this going to help these women at all? I believe someone in this thread said that these women will not basically be confined to their houses and they'll actually have less freedoms because husbands who impose such controlling and manipulative restraints on their wives then one law from a secular gov't isn't gonna change that for those women. Instead he'll just force her to stay inside all the time.

Maybe over time this law will help bring about the desired change but I don't see women in France benefitting from it any time soon.
[/quote]
Yeah.

It's a really tough situation. I think the women have to demand change themselves... maybe it'll give them a little nudge toward believing that the world can be different.