How Are Pro Life People For The Death Penalty?

[Socrates]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1303670942' post='2231876']
Haven't read any of the posts, but as far as responding to the topic title...

Life is Life.
[/quote]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbB1s7TZUQk[/media]


(The original)
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jy4tMySp5o[/media]

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1303518874' post='2231269']
ahh but how many more white people are there than black people? in the states at least?
[/quote]
If this chart is to believed...
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4d/Lifetime_prevalence_of_incarceration.png[/img]

Then it's obvious the prison system is racist against white people. They are a fraction of the prison population and yet they outnumber all races on death row. This means if you are white and going to jail, you have a far greater chance of being killed by the death penalty. If the system is to be fair, by the numbers as liberals like, the system needs to be begin killing more black people so their deaths are precisely proportional to their prison population.

If you are implying there are more white people in the general populous and therefore there should be more white people on death row than there already is, then I would submit the jail system is also sexist. Females represent 50.9% of the U.S. population. Yet, the prison system is occupied by far more males than females. Law enforcement is clearly targeting males unfairly.

[Amppax]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1303878765' post='2233814']
If this chart is to believed...
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4d/Lifetime_prevalence_of_incarceration.png[/img]

Then it's obvious the prison system is racist against white people. They are a fraction of the prison population and yet they outnumber all races on death row. This means if you are white and going to jail, you have a far greater chance of being killed by the death penalty. If the system is to be fair, by the numbers as liberals like, the system needs to be begin killing more black people so their deaths are precisely proportional to their prison population.

If you are implying there are more white people in the general populous and therefore there should be more white people on death row than there already is, then I would submit the jail system is also sexist. Females represent 50.9% of the U.S. population. Yet, the prison system is occupied by far more males than females. Law enforcement is clearly targeting males unfairly.
[/quote]

i really hope this wasn't serious....

[Amppax]

*edited for failure to fully read post being responded to

Edited April 27, 2011 by Amppax

[Mr.Cat]

Boo...

Edited April 27, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1303878765' post='2233814']

Then it's obvious the prison system is racist against white people. They are a fraction of the prison population and yet they outnumber all races on death row. This means if you are white and going to jail, you have a far greater chance of being killed by the death penalty. If the system is to be fair, by the numbers as liberals like, the system needs to be begin killing more black people so their deaths are precisely proportional to their prison population.

If you are implying there are more white people in the general populous and therefore there should be more white people on death row than there already is, then I would submit the jail system is also sexist. Females represent 50.9% of the U.S. population. Yet, the prison system is occupied by far more males than females. Law enforcement is clearly targeting males unfairly.
[/quote]

You know this is quite a simplistic examination of the information we have access to. I wish I had more time to mull over all of the data and examine the underlying societal causes and repercussions of capital punishment. But I don't, so I don't contend that I'm anything close to an expert. But you can't take one statistic and then use that to make sweeping generalizations and conclusions based upon it. I know that's what you are criticizing the other side for doing by playing the "race card" and I understand why you have a problem with that. Conversely you can't say "well actually the percentage of white prisoners on death row is much larger than that of black prisoners on death row therefore the claims of racism are ridiculous and unfounded."

I do have a [i]possible[/i] explanation for the graph you posted (which has no label on either axis so it's hard to know what you're looking at, although we can infer the info from your post) that I would just like you to consider. As Soc mentioned, black people both commit crime at a higher rate and are [b]more likely to be the victims of violent crime[/b]. Now, could it be that less black people are on death row because of the high percentage of black-on-black crime? Meaning, "who cares it's just another *racial epithet* dead?" Isn't that [i]possible[/i]? If the victims of violent crime committed by black people are usually other black people, and the lives of black people are really regarded as less valuable, then would it make much sense to put a black person on death row because he killed another black person? I mean if this pervading institutional racism actually exists, who cares to avenge or meter out justice on behalf of a lesser being?

Now I don't have the stats to prove this theory, so I'm not asking anyone to take it hook line and sinker, but all the info I've seen in this thread is [i]consistent[/i] with the idea of institutional racism. Maybe not on the immediate surface no, but too often people take a simplistic conclusion from one set of data. Coupling that with my own observations and experiences I'm certainly not willing to rule out racism within the justice system.In fact it seems quite plausible to me.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1303879149' post='2233819']
i really hope this wasn't serious....
[/quote]
It's called "irony," son.

[Winchester]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1303223928' post='2230167']
In US history, there have been 16,000 executions. Of those, only 30 were of a white man convicted of killing a minority. Florida has never executed a white man for killing a black man. Prosecutors have the sole authority on who will face the death penalty, and in death penalty states, only 2% of prosecutors are members of a minority group.

If the system has a built in racial bias, we should not support it.
[/quote]
While there might be a racial problem with people, your numbers don't prove it. You have to explore the situations behind the numbers. Of course, what it did prove is that you think white prosecutors are racists.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1303930235' post='2233938']
You know this is quite a simplistic examination of the information we have access to. I wish I had more time to mull over all of the data and examine the underlying societal causes and repercussions of capital punishment. But I don't, so I don't contend that I'm anything close to an expert. But you can't take one statistic and then use that to make sweeping generalizations and conclusions based upon it. I know that's what you are criticizing the other side for doing by playing the "race card" and I understand why you have a problem with that. Conversely you can't say "well actually the percentage of white prisoners on death row is much larger than that of black prisoners on death row therefore the claims of racism are ridiculous and unfounded."

I do have a [i]possible[/i] explanation for the graph you posted (which has no label on either axis so it's hard to know what you're looking at, although we can infer the info from your post) that I would just like you to consider. As Soc mentioned, black people both commit crime at a higher rate and are [b]more likely to be the victims of violent crime[/b]. Now, could it be that less black people are on death row because of the high percentage of black-on-black crime? Meaning, "who cares it's just another *racial epithet* dead?" Isn't that [i]possible[/i]? If the victims of violent crime committed by black people are usually other black people, and the lives of black people are really regarded as less valuable, then would it make much sense to put a black person on death row because he killed another black person? I mean if this pervading institutional racism actually exists, who cares to avenge or meter out justice on behalf of a lesser being?[/quote]
Originally, the death penalty was condemned as racist because it's claimed a disproportionate number of black men are condemned to death.

Now you suggest that too many black murderers are [i]not[/i] being put to death, (also because of white racism, of course)!

You all need to make up your minds!

This is really looking more and more like trying to find ways to prove the assumption that the system is racist in intent (because after all, we know the horrible criminal justice system in Racist Amerikkka [i]must[/i] be driven by racist motives!), rather than an objective analysis of the facts.


[quote]Now I don't have the stats to prove this theory, so I'm not asking anyone to take it hook line and sinker, but all the info I've seen in this thread is [i]consistent[/i] with the idea of institutional racism. Maybe not on the immediate surface no, but too often people take a simplistic conclusion from one set of data. Coupling that with my own observations and experiences I'm certainly not willing to rule out racism within the justice system.In fact it seems quite plausible to me.
[/quote]
If one is going to accuse the penal system of being racist, the burden of proof should be on those making the accusation of racism, not on those who deny the accusation. Simply saying it's [i]possible[/i] that the system [i]might be[/i] racist is hardly a convincing case for a sweeping condemnation of the death penalty as "racist."
That is going on an awful lot of unproven assumptions.

For the record, a significantly smaller portion of Asian Americans are on death row than whites or those of other races.
Should we assume some sinister racist Asiatic Plot against Westerners is behind this discrepancy?

And since there are far fewer women than men on death row or in prison, does that mean the penal system is sexist against males?

[Winchester]

Socrates, please stop questioning the white liberal race pandering assumptions.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1303942835' post='2234016']
Socrates, please stop questioning the white liberal race pandering assumptions.
[/quote]
Sorry sir, I'll try to avoid it in the future.


















yeah, right . . .

[Amppax]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1303941480' post='2234008']
It's called "irony," son.
[/quote]

understood, it was really late when I wrote that [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blush.gif[/img]

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1303942673' post='2234015']
Originally, the death penalty was condemned as racist because it's claimed a disproportionate number of black men are condemned to death.

[b]Now you suggest that too many black murderers are [i]not[/i] being put to death, (also because of white racism, of course)[/b]![/quote]

Please, you know that's not what I'm saying. One side says "here's a stat that shows the death penalty to be racist," to which kamiller said "here's a stat that proves the death penalty is actually not racist." I understand why you and kamiller objected. The evidence shown was not sufficient proof for their side of the argument. OK, but it's inefficiency wasn't illuminated by the graphs and stats posted in response, it was and is inefficient because it simply isn't enough information to grasp the complexity of the problem. Likewise the arguments of the opposition were not sufficient in debunking anything. There's simply not enough there.

You say the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. That's fair. And I guess I can't expect a detailed and nuanced opposition when the claim has not been argued sufficiently. Like I said this is a complex issue and I don't quite have the time or resources to build a solid argument either way, but that's not what this thread has been really. It's been throwing little tidbits of statistical information and going "see! the system is/isn't racist!" or "if the system is/isn't racist then how do you explain this data?! haha lol"

I was merely giving a [i]possible[/i] explanation of the statistics. You see it as trying to weasel my way out of the obvious truth because you can't see past the "oh they're just being politically -correct/liberal/bleeding heart sissies. When all I was asking is to merely [i]consider[/i] the possibility that perhaps there is racism in the justice system. Unless of course you've already made your mind up, in which case you're criticizing others for doing the same thing.

Are you an expert in this area or have you done extensive, rigorous research on it? I'm guessing with the amount and quality of the information here that none of us are (although I do remember Catherine mentioning that she was studying it or something).

But doesn't it make sense that, if most violent crimes committed by black people are against black people, society might feel the need to lock em up but don't see why they should waste even more resources on capital punishment to avenge black victims? Can't you accept this as a [i]possibility[/i]? Why the hell you interpreted this as a call to kill more black prisoners is beyond me, unless you were just trolling. A REALLY useful statistic would be death penalty rates based on the race of the victims rather than the offenders. I don't have that information and don't know how I could find it, but it [i]could[/i] explain the set of data kamiller has given. I'm not interested at the moment in formulating a thorough argument in either direction, I was merely proposing an explanation or you might even call it a question in some sense.
[quote]
Simply saying it's possible that the system might be racist is hardly a convincing case for a sweeping condemnation of the death penalty as "racist."
That is going on an awful lot of unproven assumptions.[/quote]

That's all I was saying. This is a freakin forum I'm not in the process of writing a dissertation on the matter. Unlike yours seems to be, my mind is actually not made up and hell, I was interested in exchanging ideas, theories, and possibilities because I find the subject matter interesting. I didn't know that I must have an iron-clad impregnable argument before I could engage in discussion. Guess I didn't read the rules well enough.

And please tell me where to find my sweeping condemnation of the death penalty as racist. I do not see it. In fact I said quite the opposite more than once. All I know is racism still exists as a pervading force that often goes unseen. I assume you don't quite agree. I'm not here to convince you of this, but because I believe it to be true, I merely wanted to swap some ideas about how this might, or might not, be playing out in our justice system.

If it is inconceivable for you to understand how a person might be sympathetic to racial-bias unless said person is a liberal p-c hippie then whatever. That's your deal. And if you're unwilling to partake in some theoretical discussion (distinct from debating, which I don't remember me ever doing) with people like me that's A-OK. But don't try to caricature my "argument" as some bumbling idiot tripping over his own words and blissfully unaware of his own incompetence when I never ever claimed I had a solid argument in the first place.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1303953944' post='2234091']
If it is inconceivable for you to understand how a person might be sympathetic to racial-bias unless said person is a liberal p-c hippie then whatever. That's your deal. And if you're unwilling to partake in some theoretical discussion (distinct from debating, which I don't remember me ever doing) with people like me that's A-OK. But don't try to caricature my "argument" as some bumbling idiot tripping over his own words and blissfully unaware of his own incompetence when I never ever claimed I had a solid argument in the first place.
[/quote]

*shrugs*

well [i]I[/i] certainly took you to be a liberal p-c hippie from your "argument" . . . and I [i]did[/i] assume that you were a bumbling idiot tripping over his own words and blissfully unaware of his own incompetence . . .

















Sorry, just couldn't resist. :D

[MagiDragon]

Honestly, I think there are a lot of people who see everything as being racially related, and the guys on here are just sick of that mentality. It wasn't anything personal.

Peace,
Joe

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1303953944' post='2234091']
Please, you know that's not what I'm saying. One side says "here's a stat that shows the death penalty to be racist," to which kamiller said "here's a stat that proves the death penalty is actually not racist." I understand why you and kamiller objected. . . . [Edited by Socrates for sake of brevity]


That's all I was saying. This is a freakin forum I'm not in the process of writing a dissertation on the matter.[/quote]
Didn't stop you from writing a doctoral dissertation-length diatribe on here . . .

Remember, brevity is the soul of wit.


[quote] Unlike yours seems to be, my mind is actually not made up and hell, I was interested in exchanging ideas, theories, and possibilities because I find the subject matter interesting. I didn't know that I must have an iron-clad impregnable argument before I could engage in discussion. Guess I didn't read the rules well enough.

And please tell me where to find my sweeping condemnation of the death penalty as racist. I do not see it. In fact I said quite the opposite more than once. All I know is racism still exists as a pervading force that often goes unseen. I assume you don't quite agree. I'm not here to convince you of this, but because I believe it to be true, I merely wanted to swap some ideas about how this might, or might not, be playing out in our justice system. [/quote]

To tell the truth, I'm not really interested in extremely hypothetical speculation about whether or not death row prosecutors might possibly perhaps be racist deep down inside.

Whether or not prosecutors might or might not have interior racist motivations is quite frankly impossible to know, and its dubious anyone would admit to it if they did. And quite frankly, such hypothesizing is totally irrelevant.

The fact is there is simply no compelling factual evidence that the penal system regarding death row in America currently unjustly disproportionately targets black convicts for execution, as is commonly asserted as incontrovertable fact by opponents of capital punishment.

Hypothesizing that is itself caused by racism against the victims seems rather pointless and silly. (Too many blacks on death row = racism, too few blacks on death row = racism. Quite a catch-22 there.)

There just isn't compelling factual evidence that the death penalty in America is primarily or largely racially motivated.
And with regards to accusations of racism, we shouldn't presume prosecutors guilty until proven innocent.


Again, the death row statistics not support the accusations of across-the-board racism with regards to death row. The accusations of racism look more like the common tactic of playing the race card, where the emotionally volatile charges of racism against one's opponents are used to end any rational objective discussion of the issue at hand. If one disagrees, he has to spend all his time fending off labels of "racism."


[quote]If it is inconceivable for you to understand how a person might be sympathetic to racial-bias unless said person is a liberal p-c hippie then whatever. That's your deal.[/quote]
Note that I never used the words "liberal," "pc," or "hippie" in this thread.
But if you dope-suckers really must insist . . . (jk)

[quote]And if you're unwilling to partake in some theoretical discussion (distinct from debating, which I don't remember me ever doing) with people like me that's A-OK. But don't try to caricature my "argument" as some bumbling idiot tripping over his own words and blissfully unaware of his own incompetence when I never ever claimed I had a solid argument in the first place.
[/quote]
Since the accusations of killing people on account of race are very serious, I think any discussion should be rooted in facts, not in empty hypotheses and speculation about possible sinister hidden motives.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='MagiDragon' timestamp='1304025255' post='2234331']
Honestly, I think there are a lot of people who see everything as being racially related, and the guys on here are just sick of that mentality. It wasn't anything personal.

Peace,
Joe
[/quote]

EVERYTHING IS PERSONAL


[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1304033766' post='2234374']
Didn't stop you from writing a doctoral dissertation-length diatribe on here . . .

Remember, brevity is the soul of wit.[/quote]

To be honest I was gonna go back and delete the post entirely but it was apparently too late to do so. It's rather incoherent bumbling idiot like.


[quote]Note that I never used the words "liberal," "pc," or "hippie" in this thread.
But if you dope-suckers really must insist . . . (jk)[/quote]

I could tell you were thinking it


[quote]Since the accusations of killing people on account of race are very serious, I think any discussion should be rooted in facts, not in empty hypotheses and speculation about possible sinister hidden motives.[/quote]

That's really not what I was getting that, talking about hidden motives of individual prosecutors etc etc. I just thought of all the high-profile cases involving the death penalty or no, and realized most of the time the victims were white (and usually the offenders as well) so I thought [i]if[/i] the system is racist I guess said system wouldn't take the deaths of black victims that seriously, so maybe that's why not many blacks are on death row. Then I was curious about what the demographics look like for victims, rather than for the perpetrators

It was merely a thought. If you don't wanna play with hypotheticals and whatnot that's understandable, I just didn't like how you took off loling at an "argument" I didn't even make and said croutons like I must think more black people should be on death row . Is that stuff necessary? I ended up explaining myself using way too many words, (which I"m honestly surprised anyone would read through) because it seemed like you were gloating of over the corpse of an argument that was laid to rest by a few succinct facts that anyone besides an overly-emotional liberal could understand WHEN I'S NEVAR EVEN MADE AN ARGUMENT IN THE FURST PLACE.

OK so my feelings got hurt and I cried and wrote a novel to explain how offended I was 'cause that's what us bleeding hearts do . JK, but I do feel silly for that last post because it's like I kept going on and on and I couldn't stop and I write something and then delete it and then I'd be like "well I also need to explain this" and then i figured "well if i don't add this paragraph then this whole post is worthless and he totally won't get it" and then I started thinking about M-theory and if at the beginning there was a quantum field with a really low energy level maybe this is just like the 3748234th universe to come out of it and maybe there's another version of me in another universe somewhere who's writing the same thing but differently because the entropy is too high so all of her molecules are ripping apart or maybe there's another universe that came after ours but we don't know and maybe one day it's gonna crash into us and everything will go kaboom but more importantly Swahili is the most common of the African languages did you know that there are hundreds of languages on the African continent alone and before there even might have been thousands?

This proves the dp is racist

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1304050153' post='2234461']
JK, but I do feel silly for that last post because it's like I kept going on and on and I couldn't stop and I write something and then delete it and then I'd be like "well I also need to explain this" and then i figured "well if i don't add this paragraph then this whole post is worthless and he totally won't get it" and then I started thinking about M-theory and if at the beginning there was a quantum field with a really low energy level maybe this is just like the 3748234th universe to come out of it and maybe there's another version of me in another universe somewhere who's writing the same thing but differently because the entropy is too high so all of her molecules are ripping apart or maybe there's another universe that came after ours but we don't know and maybe one day it's gonna crash into us and everything will go kaboom but more importantly Swahili is the most common of the African languages did you know that there are hundreds of languages on the African continent alone and before there even might have been thousands?
[/quote]

That's a sentence I'd like to see diagrammed....

[Amppax]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1304055040' post='2234489']
That's a sentence I'd like to see diagrammed....
[/quote]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='LinaSt.Cecilia2772' timestamp='1303168445' post='2229954']
Okay this is one thing i've noticed about alot of politicians and people. Alot of them say they are pro life, but they are ALL FOR the death penalty. Aren't people who are pro life supposed to keep the sacredness of human life no matter what age they are and no matter what crimes they have or havent committed? This makes absolutely no sense to me what so ever. I believe that if you are pro life, you are against both abortion and the death penalty. Not just one, which is mainly abortion. I sometimes even see practicing Catholics have this mind set, when they clearly state that they are pro life. Me being a practicing Catholic, i am against both, and it's beyond me why people think that the death penalty is right. A person on death row has the same amount of life as an unborn baby does. Plain and Simple. No matter what crimes they have committed, they are still human life, and we should respect that as much as we do unborn human life.
[/quote]


I never say I am prolife unless dealing with people who are not to bright... I say i am against abortion. Let me be clear, I am not really for the death penalty as it is used in our country, but I have no problem what so ever with the death penalty itself.

Abortion is the murder of an innocent human life. The use of the death penalty is the killing ( killling in itself is not immoral) of a guilty ( at least believed to be guilty) person. A person guilty of a crime punishable by death has already forfieted his right to life. ( look up the principle of forfieture under Natural Law). His death could also fall under Double Effect.

As A Catholic I am not bound to reject the death penalty, and I do not see any theological or philosophical reason to do so, the same is not true of abortion. They are [i]NOT [/i]analgous.