Religiosity And Intellgence Quotiants

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1304374928' post='2235974']
And having a high IQ hardly proves one's views correct. There are plenty of people with high IQs and not a lick of basic common sense.
[/quote]
I didn't see anyone arguing this point.

[Mr.Cat]

dairygirl4u2c, the thing that I observe is people trying to find an "enemy" to "fight", because with this information there is a perceived threat. Though I am not so sure why, but the instrument of attack in the discussion so far is one of the many shades of denial. Because its more than a few points difference, in every kind of testing imaginable the same trend is always observed. That is significant...

Personally, I find the consistent resentment fascinating. Less religiosity statistically tends to mean higher income, social support, education, and intelligence. Does this validate or invalidate Catholicism, no. Does this mean that religious people are stupid, no. So what is the fear? That is what I am digging for.

I guess the fear is that this implicates that there are unintelligent people making religion look bad, which... I hope we can agree is true. Which I hope we can agree it tends to be the extremes of religion that comes to mind when we think of examples. Perhaps this is an explanation, the critical thinking skills that allows a less religious person to question the burning of witches which was a common theme among many different christian cultures for centuries wasn't there for the more religious person... while the more religious person couldn't seem to grasp why someone would question the burning of a witch.

But maybe my example if a few centuries out of date. Again, the topic is not specifically addressed at Catholicism, many people when they see the word religion they always assume their own faith, and ONLY their own faith. Which is again, just another natural sociological force at work within religion. Which as I have learned since my doctor of sociology challenged me, Catholics and the Church are not exempt to such forces, in fact it doesn't seem different from any other religion in regard to the psychology and sociology of religion.

So it seems that less religious people are more exempt from these psychological and sociological forces, why? Is it merely intelligence or is it something more? It's always for an ideology people are ready to discriminate for... religious, political, or social. I wish I had more experience in neurobiology, I suspect that the development of the brain through life has the answers I truly seek. But for those interested in a more detailed scientific source, I recommend "[i]The Handbook of Religion and Health[/i]". Regretfully, this discussion stayed in square one...

A practical application would be the islamic states, the last truly religious states in the world by comparison... which we tend to see less income, social support, and education. Has anyone ever then speculated that might be why their people want sharia law and their religious leaders calling the important shots? The same could be said for the "Bible Belt" in the United States that tends to have less income, social support, and education... It seems to be a consistent trend. But that starts to put the human tendency of religiosity as detrimental... Which is my opinion. Its not faith or religion persay, its this tendency of religiosity.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1304374928' post='2235974']While I had had the OP on ignore, as he is typically a troll, seeing as this thread has gone on for two pages, I thought I'd add my $.02. . . .


While I can't speak regarding the methodology, integrity, and accuracy of Nyborg and Lynn's study, I can say that many of the most intelligent, educated, and intellectual people I've known personally, as well as read, have been strongly believing, practicing orthodox Catholics, a number of them being of a "traditionalist" bent, and most of them politically and culturally conservative. (Of course, it does help to have been to an orthodox Catholic school.)
Many of them have high IQs, some at genius level, and some are converts from irreligion.

While I hate to tout my own braininess (as its really irrelevant to anything), lets just say I've scored high on IQ tests, as well as in my academic studies. I also attend the traditional Latin Mass at a very conservative FSSP parish, and most would classify my political, cultural, and religious beliefs as very conservative. And this is true for many much more intelligent than myself.

But my IQ or anybody else's is really completely irrelevant to any meaningful debate on religion, philosophy, or politics.

Touting studies allegedly proving higher average IQ scores for the irreligious and liberals is simply a slightly-more-sophisticated way of calling those who disagree with those views a buncha stoopid retards.
It is a lazy and sloppy method of avoiding actually having to even address the religious or political arguments themselves, and instead resorts to using statistical averages to dismiss those on the other side as dummies.

It's lazy, ad-hominem, and anything but intelligent.

And having a high IQ hardly proves one's views correct. There are plenty of people with high IQs and not a lick of basic common sense.


"Radtrads, fundamentalists, extremists, dogmatists" are rather ill-defined and derogatory labels, and labeling them all stupid is even less meaningful.
In my casual experience (for whatever it's worth), the irreligious and liberal tend to be intellectually-lazy idiots who prefer name-calling and smug condescension to rational thought, and tend to avoid serious intellectual inquiry at all, their minds being more occupied with such weighty matters as who they slept with/what porn they watched last night and what to get drunk/high/stoned on tonight.


Here's something somewhat related I came across lately, dealing with a study by Charles Murray of the American Enterprise Institute on the correlation of the factors of marriage, work ethic, and religion and economic class among American whites.
[url="http://blog.adw.org/2011/04/civilization-killers-on-the-decline-of-three-basic-cultural-indicators-and-what-it-means-for-america/"]Civilization Killers – On the Decline of Three Basic Cultural Indicators and What it Means for America By: Msgr. Charles Pope[/url]

Among Murray's findings:
"Although secularization has long been on the rise, it’s more pronounced in the working class. Among the upper middle class, 42 percent say they either don’t believe in God or don’t go to church. In the working class, it’s 61 percent. In other words, a majority of the upper middle class still has some religious commitment, while a majority of the working class does not."

While I know there's not a direct correlation between intelligence and economic class, these findings hardly paint a picture of the irreligious as a superior intellectual elite.[/quote]I can always count on you for name-calling and personal attacks... Thank you. But I wish you continued to avoid me, as I fear you're sincere attempts at discussion comes across as laughable mockery.[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304376142' post='2235983']I didn't see anyone arguing this point.[/quote]Me either.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1304365934' post='2235887']
Are you sure you are in a postion to judge intelligence?
[/quote]

If that wasn't outright intended to be insulting, then you demonstrated a severe lack of prudence. You've got a bit of nerve to tell him "don't attack me again" after making a statement like that.

~Sternhauser

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304376142' post='2235983']
I didn't see anyone arguing this point.
[/quote]

not to mention the irrelevance of inserting that he has a high IQ.
(phatmass is full of such folks, nothin special there. but props for that

[Socrates]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304376142' post='2235983']
I didn't see anyone arguing this point.
[/quote]
What point was being argued?

Does this thread even have a point?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1304377259' post='2235995']
Personally, I find the consistent resentment fascinating. Less religiosity statistically tends to mean higher income, social support, education, and intelligence.
[/quote]
Interestingly, Murray's findings showed the opposite (at least regarding income and social support.)

"Although secularization has long been on the rise, it’s more pronounced in the working class. [b]Among the upper middle class, 42 percent say they either don’t believe in God or don’t go to church. In the working class, it’s 61 percent. In other words, a majority of the upper middle class still has some religious commitment, while a majority of the working class does not.[/b]"

Msgr. Pope's commentary:
[quote]Now this is very paradoxical to some I am sure. I happened to discover the truth of this when I lived among the poor of Southeast Washington for 7 years. I had always thought that the poor were very religious. I think the Scriptures themselves influenced me in this as they warned of riches and indicated God’s loving favor to the poor. But one of the discoveries I made about the very poor was that almost none of them ever went to church! I came to see this as one of the things that contributed to their poverty. For what it indicated was their disconnectedness from others. Churches, among other social functions, serve to knit people together in a socially supportive structure. Having severed themselves from such a community, the poor were even more vulnerable.[/quote]

I'd recommend reading the entire linked article (wish I could find more direct material from Murray himself, as the linked articles consist of commentary from others).

Do you have countering statistics (other than the survey regarding IQ test scores)?

Edited May 3, 2011 by Socrates

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1304366031' post='2235890']
Why are you turning this discussion into a trolling personal attack or at the least strawman argument? You're not helping your case.
[/quote]

Be honest, the dig at traddies, etc at the bottom of your first post started it.

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304366950' post='2235907']
"'I'm not saying that believing in God makes you dumber. My hypothesis is that people with a low intelligence are more easily drawn toward religions, which give answers that are certain, while people with a high intelligence are more skeptical,' says the professor."
I could buy that.
[/quote]


That does make perfect sense. many of the absolute stupidest people i know subscribe to a religion with easy answers and no personal thought required.


I must say though, in a thread about intelligence, i found it quite hilarious to see the number of spelling mistakes in the Title and original post. funny stuff.

[4588686]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1304374928' post='2235974']

While I hate to tout my own braininess (as its really irrelevant to anything), lets just say I've scored high on IQ tests, as well as in my academic studies. I also attend the traditional Latin Mass at a very conservative FSSP parish, and most would classify my political, cultural, and religious beliefs as very conservative. And this is true for many much more intelligent than myself.[/quote]


You hate touting it so much that you sliped it unnecessairly into the conversation!

[img]http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/upload/2010/02/the_invasion_of_well-intentioned_but_use/stuart_smalley.jpg[/img]

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1304380967' post='2236023']Interestingly, Murray's findings showed the opposite (at least regarding income and social support.)

"Although secularization has long been on the rise, it’s more pronounced in the working class. [b]Among the upper middle class, 42 percent say they either don’t believe in God or don’t go to church. In the working class, it’s 61 percent. In other words, a majority of the upper middle class still has some religious commitment, while a majority of the working class does not.[/b]"

I'd recommend reading the entire linked article (wish I could find more direct material from Murray himself, as the linked articles consist of commentary from others).

Do you have countering statistics (other than the survey regarding IQ test scores)?[/quote]Interestingly, I don't care about your opinionated libertarian hero who writes on whatever whim he had in mind. But I find the terminology of "working class", a bit confusing when put against "middle class".

Interestingly, there were multiple sources cited and that statement you quoted itself came from my doctor of sociology, so I would have to ask her where it came from specifically.

But, I doubt you read the article or topic I posted... or the reference to an entire book... So if I don't read your one source and man, I hope you forgive me.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I assume the title is a joke but just in case:

Religiosity And [s]Intellgence[/s] [s]Quotiants[/s] Damned [s]Stasitics[/s]
Religiosity and Intelligence Quotients, Damned Statistics


Get a brain morans.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1304383875' post='2236036']
Interestingly, I don't care about your opinionated libertarian hero who writes on whatever whim he had in mind.[/quote]

Socrates doesn't have libertarian heroes.

~Sternhauser

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1304383896' post='2236037']
Get a brain morans.
[/quote]
[img]http://www.lahdee.com/images/moran.jpg[/img]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304385303' post='2236056']
[img]http://www.lahdee.com/images/moran.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
Where'd you get that picture of me?

[Vincent Vega]

Your fb...

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304385666' post='2236058']
Your fb...
[/quote]
Cardinals FTW.

[Maximilianus]

I know it wasn't intended, but this thread makes me lol...I'll enjoy it while it still open.

[Groo the Wanderer]

i are so smart i kin sspel QI with my eyes cloased.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Intelligent ppl are moar likely to be vegetarian too. Kind of cool.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1304382895' post='2236029']

I must say though, in a thread about intelligence, i found it quite hilarious to see the number of spelling mistakes in the Title and original post. funny stuff.
[/quote]