Spiritual Depression Due To Vain Discernment

[MargaretTeresa]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1306168793' post='2244900']
And another prayer from St Ignatius

Take, Lord, and receive all my liberty,
my memory, my understanding,
and my entire will,
All I have and call my own.


You have given all to me.
To you, Lord, I return it.


Everything is yours; do with it what you will.
Give me only your love and your grace,
that is enough for me.





[/quote]

Vee, I love this. It makes me think of Carmel.

I dunno if you've realized, but this sudden contemplativeness has really got me thinking about Carmel again. So I'm praying and making prayer cards and trying to be happy.

[Ave Maria Totus Tuus]

Hello all,

It has been quite a while since I've posted on Phatmass. But I definitely have been lurking, despite my absence in posting!

I understand all the feelings that have been discussed thus far in the thread. I have been discerning a call to the religious life for four years now, a call which I recognized in the middle of college, and felt more than ready to answer if it weren't for all those circumstances of my life at the time that prevented me from entering at that time, and would keep me from being able to enter for at least six years. As a priest told me during that time, sometimes the seemingly temporal circumstances of our lives are clear signs of God's will! It was hard to swallow that, but when I did, it brought me immense freedom.

I finished college two years ago, and am now two years into a commitment, with two years left to go before it is complete. My biggest fears with surrendering to my life's circumstances and allowing God to work in me was the thought that I would "lose my vocation." Well, if that happens, then maybe I didn't even have a vocation to begin with!

What I do know is that I have been out living in the world, in an extremely secular form of work, and God has shown me so many things. He has challenged me to love Him when it is not easy to do so. He has shown me the beauty of married life, of parenthood--an appreciation I'd say I never really had when I first started discerning. It took me to be out in the world to realize it. And God willing, if I do become a religious, that appreciation and even desire for marriage will be nothing but beneficial and important to my life in the religious state. God has shown me the beauty and importance of the lay vocation--to be a lay person out in the world, preaching the Gospel with your very life. It has been a beautiful time.

Yet, at the same time, the call to religious life has not left my heart. When I really think about the DEEPEST desires of my heart, I think I know what He is asking. But I continue to wait and see, to know that He is in control, and to surrender.

So if you find yourself in despair with the thought of having to wait to enter religious life, just know that God might be doing something very intentional for you. Even if it is just one soul touched or one lesson learned during your time of waiting, it will have been worth it and will have been necessary!

This quote has got me through many hard moments:

"An upright heart and a good will.
With these, and your mind intent on carrying out what God wants,
you will see your dreams of Love come true, and your hunger for souls satisfied."

St. Josemaria Escriva


Let's pray for each other!


It is important to remember not to be fearful. Fear is not of God. Do not be afraid! Trust. Hope. And don't worry!

[Sarah147]

[quote name='Catherine Therese' timestamp='1306109835' post='2244634']
I can't emphasise enough the importance of ACTIVELY realising that a vocation is God's call to God's plan, in God's timing.

By ACTIVELY I mean that it is not enough to acknowledge this on an intellectual level. This intellectual realization needs then to inform your actions and you need to live accordingly. Otherwise you're going to drive yourself nuts with frustration.

In my personal experience, God's call wasn't a single, life-defining gong in my ear. It was a gentle whisper that recurred over a long, long time. Each little whisper built ever-so-slightly on the previous one. Over time this developed into a coherent message that I eventually understood and could respond to. But when the whispers first started coming, I DIDNT have a coherent message and I COULDNT 'do' anything about it except getting on with TRYING (and more often than not failing) to live a good and prayerful life.

It sounds like you may have heard a whisper - maybe several. And you've jumped to attention and wholeheartedly responded by going and investigating all the different charisms and orders in order to see if any of them stood out as the direction in which you were being led. This is GREAT, but now the ball is in God's court! You can't DO anything to speed this along. Let God do the doing! I promise you - if you have a vocation to religious life and you've done everything that you have said, another whisper will come. And another. Until you understand enough about where God is leading to ease your frustration and take whatever step is next.

At this point, in my humble opinion and with my limited life experience, I offer the following two suggestions:

1. Read (slowly and prayerfully) the following books, preferably in the order listed:
* Searching For and Maintaining Inner Peace (Fr Jacques Philippe)
* In the School of the Holy Spirit (Fr Jacques Philippe)
* Interior Freedom (Fr Jacques Philippe)
* And You Are Christ's (Fr Thomas Dubay)

2. Disengage from active 'searching' and trying to 'force' the vocation discernment process. Get on with your life and wait, again ACTIVELY, for God to work in you. By actively, I mean focus on your relationship with God, not on what He might be calling you to do and be. If you have established a good pattern of regular prayer (daily Mass where possible, daily rosary, daily time in silent meditation and some spiritual reading are the most important ones. If you're able, its great to include Morning and Evening Prayer from the Divine Office, too) then maintain this, focus on doing this faithfully, attentively and well. NOT with any strings attached that mean you're expecting immediate vocational awareness - aim to do this simply to work on your relationship with God. (If you don't have a pattern of prayer like this just yet, work towards establishing it. Not all at once - just a little bit at a time, or you'll quickly become discouraged.)


I really think this is all you need to 'do' for now. The relationship with God is the most important thing, the ONLY important thing. The books will help with some good, firm, commonsense guidance in the spiritual life, Fr Jacques Philippe is a master and his work is such a breath of fresh air. Having done these two things you'll become so attuned to God's work in your life that you will almost certainly be able to hear His voice clearly and understand where He is leading you.

Be patient and let God do His work in you. You are a child, He is your Father. YOU don't have to pay the bills or lock the house up at night - that is your Father's job. You only need to love and honour your Father and enjoy His love and protection.

I hope this helps! I might not be a crash hot advice-giver and the above might not speak adequately to your situation - if this is the case, at least be assured of my prayers for you! God bless
[/quote]


A w esome, a w esome, a w e some!

[Sarah147]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1306174653' post='2244946']
Interesting topic.

For myself, I've certainly experienced periods of frustration and various 'depressive' episodes. But I've come to recognize those episodes for what they are... emotions. Our human nature is very tied up in our emotions and in our desires. Do I desperately desire to enter [i]now[/i]? Sure! And sometimes that desire is so overwhelming that I feel like a child who has yet to learn to control their emotions-- sometimes I feel like throwing a tantrum, or crying, or unable to fall asleep, etc.

And sometimes the situation seems so bleak to me that there's no end in sight. No chance of me ever being able to enter. Hopeless. I should just give up and get on with my life. Prayer? Who cares.

But these are all on the emotional level. One of my biggest lessons that God has been teaching me during this time of waiting is [i]complete abandonment to His will, right here, right now.[/i] Not in the future. But now. And to trust Him that He has everything under control. That my first desire and love is for His will alone. For Him alone.

So when these emotions come (and they do!), I talk to Jesus about them. I force myself to continue to prayer, go to daily Mass, keep up with my spiritual plan of life. It's tough at times. And I fall. And fail. And then throw myself into His arms again.

Just remember... it's all about loving Jesus. I'm only now seeing just how true this is. I mean, of course I loved Jesus early in my discernment! But the order of importance and amount of time and energy... most was spent on discernment. I remember from the very get-go my spiritual director told me that we'd be focusing just on loving Jesus and growing in prayer... NOT discernment. It took me about a year and a half of frustration with him that we weren't working on discernment before I finally gave in and focused all of my attention just on Jesus- no string attached (not expecting clarity right away regarding my vocation).

Focus on Jesus. Focus on prayer. [i]Loving[/i] Him. [i]Knowing[/i] Him. Live [i]now[/i] completely abandoned to His will for you. Everything else will fall into place. As St. Augustine said, "Love; and then do what you will." If you learn now to be content with and to love God's will for you, right where you are... and if you continue to grow in abandonment to this will... Every moment of your life will be spent in this abandonment, and you are sure to not miss your vocation.
[/quote]


Soooooooo true. I believe good spiritual directors will have everyone focus on loving Jesus.

[Santa Cruz]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1306168571' post='2244898']
To quote the thread title "Spiritual Depression Due To Vain Discernment" I can only add that trying to figure out or discern God's will for one's life is never ever in vain. The safest place to be is in His will.

So true! Thank you for picking up on that! That is such an important point. What is vain discernment? Wouldn't that be looking for a way of life that fulfills all my wants and needs rather than listening to hear how and where God can use you to build up His Kingdom, how and where you can bring Him the greater glory? Of course we all have intentions that need purifying along the way but I doubt anyone here would be discerning in vain.

Nothing is wasted with God.

[Studiumecclesiae]

[b]Dear All,
[/b]
Thank you for your interesting messages.
I know the Order, I have no problems with my parents. I know I am meant to be a nun (I think).
But the problem is that I have no spiritual director at the moment, as I keep moving out, travelling, etc. It's impossible.
Though I always contact the Vocation Office everytime I move in somewhere.

The problem is when I visit communities. It happens that a community seems to be "the right one" and when I get there I get over-sensitive and every thing that don't appeal to me break my heart and I just turn away to go to another place. I keep thinking that if I am frustrated before entering, it shall carry on, as I am after strict papal enclosure.

I want the perfect community, with strict enclosure, etc. I have a pre-vatican II conception of the Religious Life and every time a community seems very traditional, when I look closer and see it's not "that", I just turn away.
At some point, I feel put-off. Because I've travelled too far now. Now I am fed-up. Lukewarm. I've given up lots of good habits since then.

I'll try to get more steady in prayer. I might visit another community, but I'll try not to have too much hope. Disappointment is killing me.

[i]StudiumEcclesiae[/i]

[Cherie]

Prayers for you in your discernment.

[quote name='Studiumecclesiae' timestamp='1306315367' post='2245698']

I want the perfect community, with strict enclosure, etc. I have a pre-vatican II conception of the Religious Life and every time a community seems very traditional, when I look closer and see it's not "that", I just turn away.
At some point, I feel put-off. Because I've travelled too far now. Now I am fed-up. Lukewarm. I've given up lots of good habits since then.

[/quote]

I worked a lot with the Vocation Directress of my former community, and in my experience, I have come across many discerners who feel similarly. I would encourage you to realize that there truly is NO "perfect community." Yes, if God is calling you to religious life, there is a community that is perfect [i]for you,[/i] but if someone goes out to seek a "perfect community," that fits every single one of their preconceived ideas of religious life or what a community "should be" in every way, they will leave being sorely disappointed, as it truly does not exist.

It often helps to remember that God allows these deviations from our "picture perfect" community for our benefit. If everything is "perfect," if it's practically a utopia for us, how can we truly grow in virtue? The only way one can practice patience is being in a situation in which we're inclined to be [i]impatient;[/i] in the same way, one can try to be completely conformed to God's will, but the only way one can [i]truly[/i] give our own will completely over to God's Will in religious life is if there are certain aspects of the life--however small-- that go against [i]our own will,[/i] so we can offer it up and become more closely conformed to God's will. It's often the most difficult aspect of religious life.

I remember learning the most difficult thing, the thing that sets religious MOST apart from the world isn't actually celibacy - it's [i]willingly[/i] giving up our free will in order to conform it to God's. Free will is a wonderful gift from God! But religious willingly offer it up, [i]willingly [/i]choose to obey a human Superior who is the "mediator" of God's will for them. It may be the most difficult thing, but it is also the most rewarding -- how much more quickly a religious will grow in virtue as a result of giving up their own will, than a person "in the world" who can do whatever they want at any time!

I would encourage you to realize that there [i]will[/i] be parts of any community that don't appeal to you. That's just the way it is; no community ever fully fits one's "dream" of the perfect community. Some get pretty darn close, it's true, and that's how many realize they are called to a specific community. But God will use those "unappealing" parts to help you grow in virtue and bring you closer to Him. It is one aspect of conforming our wills to His.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1306320719' post='2245712']
Prayers for you in your discernment.



I worked a lot with the Vocation Directress of my former community, and in my experience, I have come across many discerners who feel similarly. I would encourage you to realize that there truly is NO "perfect community." Yes, if God is calling you to religious life, there is a community that is perfect [i]for you,[/i] but if someone goes out to seek a "perfect community," that fits every single one of their preconceived ideas of religious life or what a community "should be" in every way, they will leave being sorely disappointed, as it truly does not exist.

It often helps to remember that God allows these deviations from our "picture perfect" community for our benefit. If everything is "perfect," if it's practically a utopia for us, how can we truly grow in virtue? The only way one can practice patience is being in a situation in which we're inclined to be [i]impatient;[/i] in the same way, one can try to be completely conformed to God's will, but the only way one can [i]truly[/i] give our own will completely over to God's Will in religious life is if there are certain aspects of the life--however small-- that go against [i]our own will,[/i] so we can offer it up and become more closely conformed to God's will. It's often the most difficult aspect of religious life.

I remember learning the most difficult thing, the thing that sets religious MOST apart from the world isn't actually celibacy - it's [i]willingly[/i] giving up our free will in order to conform it to God's. Free will is a wonderful gift from God! But religious willingly offer it up, [i]willingly [/i]choose to obey a human Superior who is the "mediator" of God's will for them. It may be the most difficult thing, but it is also the most rewarding -- how much more quickly a religious will grow in virtue as a result of giving up their own will, than a person "in the world" who can do whatever they want at any time!

I would encourage you to realize that there [i]will[/i] be parts of any community that don't appeal to you. That's just the way it is; no community ever fully fits one's "dream" of the perfect community. Some get pretty darn close, it's true, and that's how many realize they are called to a specific community. But God will use those "unappealing" parts to help you grow in virtue and bring you closer to Him. It is one aspect of conforming our wills to His.
[/quote]

Absolutely wonderful advice here - what I wanted to say but you said it so well!

The only thing I would like to add is that even if you do find what you consider to be the 'perfect community', you might not be the 'perfect match' in their minds! It's hard to say, but I found the community where I wanted to live forever but they didn't want me there... this is a relationship, not a shopping expedition. And God doesn't let any of us off the hook - we aren't perfect, we need perfecting, and sometimes this means realizing that our idea of perfection and His aren't the same thing!!

I will keep you in my prayers to find your home in religion. I am still trying to find mine so I know how hard it is. But if you give up, then that says something about you, not the communities that didn't live up to your standards. I'm not saying not to stick to your ideal, of course do the best you can, but if this is going to be a 'my way or the highway' attitude, then perhaps God is just testing your perseverence? I have given up discerning from time to time, so I know how it feels to be too discouraged and tired to keep on trying, but what's the alternative? If you're like Jeremiah, the burning in your heart won't let you give up!

If you feel called to marriage, then fine, but don't give up just because it's hard! Jesus fell three times and kept going until He reached His glory.... look to Him.

Edited May 25, 2011 by nunsense

[Studiumecclesiae]

Don't worry. Now my ideal of the Religious Life is fulfilled. I [u][b]have found[/b][/u] the right community.
I wish to enter soon, but I need to have another life-in before.

My "depression" is over, I thought such a traditional way of life didn't exist. I didn't want to try in the traditionalistic basket.
Didn't need to, because there are as traditional communities with the Paul VI's mass in latin, the office of Prime, strict papal enclosure, etc.

[i][b][size="7"][color="#ff0000"]Deo Gratias!![/color][/size][/b][/i]

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='Studiumecclesiae' timestamp='1309521890' post='2261506']
Don't worry. Now my ideal of the Religious Life is fulfilled. I [u][b]have found[/b][/u] the right community.
I wish to enter soon, but I need to have another life-in before.

My "depression" is over, I thought such a traditional way of life didn't exist. I didn't want to try in the traditionalistic basket.
Didn't need to, because there are as traditional communities with the Paul VI's mass in latin, the office of Prime, strict papal enclosure, etc.

[i][b][size="7"][color="#ff0000"]Deo Gratias!![/color][/size][/b][/i]
[/quote]

Are you referring to the Benedictines? They are a [i]wonderful [/i]community. If the Lord had called me to enclosure it would be either with the Benedictines (Mary Queen of Apostles) or the Carmelites of Valpraiso. these sisters.

[Studiumecclesiae]

Yes they're benedictines. I also hesitated between Carmel and the OSB at some point but they're very different.
Enclosure is stricter in Carmel. You're completely hidden from the world. I've seen great extremes in France.
the Benedictines can also be very enclosed but you can still see them behind the grilles (no big curtain) and they share their outstanding liturgy with all the world!! The Carmelites sing on one note and are meant to have a bare liturgy.
One is a "royal" way (the benedictines) and the other way is the way of the cross.
Both focus on penance, but the Benedictines have a more interior form of penance.

I have always been attracted to the Benedictines, more than any other order. I am so happy I found the right community!

[FutureSister2009]

I was feeling better this morning but I'm still depressed deep down

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='FutureSister2009' timestamp='1309539031' post='2261615']
I was feeling better this morning but I'm still depressed deep down
[/quote]

Prayers for you FutureSister

[Yaatee]

[quote name='Studiumecclesiae' timestamp='1309536559' post='2261595']
Yes they're benedictines. I also hesitated between Carmel and the OSB at some point but they're very different.
Enclosure is stricter in Carmel. You're completely hidden from the world. I've seen great extremes in France.
the Benedictines can also be very enclosed but you can still see them behind the grilles (no big curtain) and they share their outstanding liturgy with all the world!! The Carmelites sing on one note and are meant to have a bare liturgy.
One is a "royal" way (the benedictines) and the other way is the way of the cross.
Both focus on penance, but the Benedictines have a more interior form of penance.

I have always been attracted to the Benedictines, more than any other order. I am so happy I found the right community!
[/quote]

Want to tell us which congregation?

I too, have always been attracted to the Benedictines. .

[Studiumecclesiae]

Some Benedictines of the Solesmes congregation. (to know the specific monastery, I can tell via PM)
They are very very orthodox, very strict but not traditionalist. I found the perfect balance.
I am overjoyed.

Now I am praying for all discerners here so that they may find the right community too. You need time and patience.
Once you've found the right order, then you need to visit several before you get to the right one. Unless you exactly know what you want.
I had strict, narrow criteria, and I found rather quickly. I am so glad.

[Chamomile]

Here's something interesting and thorough about acedia:

[url="http://www.pathsoflove.com/acedia/cassian-acedia.html"]St. John Cassian on Acedia[/url]


Maybe reading that will help some who are struggling with it. And I think everyone who is trying to live a spiritual life will, at some point, struggle with this temptation.

[MithLuin]

Congratulations on finding a community, [b]Studium Ecclasiae[/b]! You sound very excited . Sometimes, having very specific criteria can mean that you are setting yourself up for disappointment...as you are creating an 'ideal' community divorced from reality. Other times, it means that God is calling you to something very particular, and you just have to keep searching, searching, searching to find it.

And sometimes (though rarely), you are being called to start an order ~ now that is scary!

I sometimes wonder if discerners sometimes look at the people who visit one of the 'popular' communities - Nashville Dominicans, CFRs, Sisters of Life, etc - and after this one visit to this one group know they have found their new home....with a bit of jealousy. After all, for others, the search is a bit more convoluted, and nowhere seems like home, or a place does, but after entering, it doesn't work out. This bumpy road is also quite common, and I guess it's just important to keep in mind that God has lessons that can only be learned through such difficulty. Perseverence is key.

[Studiumecclesiae]

Dear all,

Back in my spiritual depression due to "vain discernment". Well I just found out I don't feel that the cloistered life is appropriate for me.
So I must start all my discernment again. I don't feel like. I feel a bit sick about everything, and strengthless. But I'll have to carry on seeking God's will.
I bet it happened to many of you, discovering you were discerning with the wrong state of life, the wrong religious order, the wrong community. It's terribly frustrating. Like having a fiancé and then telling him we aren't going any further, you aren't the right man.

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='Studiumecclesiae' timestamp='1318785480' post='2322117']
Dear all,

Back in my spiritual depression due to "vain discernment". Well I just found out I don't feel that the cloistered life is appropriate for me.
So I must start all my discernment again. I don't feel like. I feel a bit sick about everything, and strengthless. But I'll have to carry on seeking God's will.
I bet it happened to many of you, discovering you were discerning with the wrong state of life, the wrong religious order, the wrong community. It's terribly frustrating. Like having a fiancé and then telling him we aren't going any further, you aren't the right man.
[/quote]

Dear SE,

Prayers for you as you continue to seek to do his will. I am inspired by your perseverance and your desire to know and do the Lord's will.

Pax,
HB

[Lisa]

Don't forget that we are praying for you! And, think of it this way: if you've discerned a particular community, charism, spirituality, or way of life isn't for you, then you've eliminated some choices and gotten closer to discerning His Will. It's not necessarily the fastest way to discern it, but it's still fruitful!