dUSt Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1306876973' post='2248345'] Nope. I'm stating along with the Church that in order to stir the hearts of the faithful and convey the importance of the Gospel itself... the entire Gospel may be sung. It seems your opposition to the Gospel being sung is based on your personal preference. I do respect you. [/quote] I thought you were advocating it be sung in Latin. Please clarify. I have no problem with and would actually [b]love[/b] it if the Gospel was sung or chanted in the vernacular (unless it is poor singing). My issue is with it being sung or chanted in Latin, because I think it's better if the congregation understands the reading.
Nihil Obstat Posted May 31, 2011 Author Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306877589' post='2248354'] I thought you were advocating it be sung in Latin. Please clarify. I have no problem with and would actually [b]love[/b] it if the Gospel was sung or chanted in the vernacular (unless it is poor singing). My issue is with it being sung or chanted in Latin, because I think it's better if the congregation understands the reading. [/quote] Both are acceptable. I consider chanting in Latin preferable for the same arguments we make for Latin in the Mass.
KnightofChrist Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 (edited) [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306876866' post='2248343'] I didn't say a priest is not allowed to read back the Gospel as part of his homily. It is not required though. If you are advocating the Gospel be chanted in Latin, and keeping the English reading of the Gospel as an "option for the priest", then what you are really only guaranteeing is that the Gospel will be delivered in Latin. So, in all practicality, you are advocating that the congregation understanding the Gospel reading is not all that important. [/quote] Does the Church by law require that the gospel reading [b][u]must be[/u][/b] read in vernacular? As I understand she gives the option and permission but does she state that it MUST BE read in vernacular? Edited May 31, 2011 by KnightofChrist
dUSt Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306877429' post='2248352'] Are you implying that you know better how the Mass should work than the Church does, as expressed in the organic development of the older form of the Roman Mass? I'm sure you're not, of course, but we must be clear. [/quote] Youspeakenglishbro?
KnightofChrist Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306877589' post='2248354'] I thought you were advocating it be sung in Latin. Please clarify. I have no problem with and would actually [b]love[/b] it if the Gospel was sung or chanted in the vernacular (unless it is poor singing). My issue is with it being sung or chanted in Latin, because I think it's better if the congregation understands the reading. [/quote] I advocate both the readings being proclaimed by song and by reading. I don't have a problem with the readings being proclaimed in Latin and/or in the vernacular, because the Church doesn't have a problem with it.
Nihil Obstat Posted May 31, 2011 Author Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306877749' post='2248358'] Youspeakenglishbro? [/quote] You said: It would make more sense to simply have the Gospel reading consist of chanting it in Latin and then reading it in English immediately following. THEN say, "the Gospel of the Lord." And then the homily. The T.L.M. Mass does not do this. Are you then implying that the Traditional Latin Mass doesn't make as much sense, and that it would make more sense if you fixed it?
dUSt Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 [quote]There is nothing wrong or improper about chanting the readings in Latin first, then re-reading in the vernacular during the homily. The Liturgy of the Word is directed towards the formal worship of God, therefore chant is quite proper. The homily is directed towards the benefit of the congregation, and therefore it is eminently proper that the readings are explained to them. If the readings previously were chanted in Latin, it only makes sense to recite them in English first, so that everyone is 'on the same page'.[/quote] You keep separating the homily from the Liturgy of the Word. I already explained to you that the homily is part of the Liturgy of the Word. Are you advocating that the English reading be required in addition to the Latin? If so, you're adding to the rubrics. If not, then the English remains "optional" and has no basis in this discussion.
dUSt Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306877847' post='2248360'] You said: It would make more sense to simply have the Gospel reading consist of chanting it in Latin and then reading it in English immediately following. THEN say, "the Gospel of the Lord." And then the homily. The T.L.M. Mass does not do this. Are you then implying that the Traditional Latin Mass doesn't make as much sense, and that it would make more sense if you fixed it? [/quote] Still confused.
ThePenciledOne Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 I smell so much idealism running through this thread, its made me sick to my stomach.....
Laudate_Dominum Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1306878335' post='2248363'] I smell so much idealism running through this thread, its made me sick to my stomach..... [/quote] idealism. yuck! ... dude. get a plate...
dUSt Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1306878335' post='2248363'] I smell so much idealism running through this thread, its made me sick to my stomach..... [/quote] I wish cards were called isms. As in, "a deck of isms". That way, when I deal, I could say, I deal isms. Get it? I deal isms? Idealisms? GET IT!?!? HAHAHAHA!!!
HisChildForever Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1306876023' post='2248332'] Why be so against it? What does it really matter if it is proclaimed twice? Is is so awful to hear the word of the Lord more than once at Mass? A good answer is that people forget, their minds wonder, they may have missed it the first time because of a child or any other reason. And that the Homily is suppose to be based upon the readings, and reading them again would perhaps help the Priest to stay on track. Often I've heard homilies that have little or nothing to do with the readings. At least reading them again during the homily would remind everyone what the homily is about. But again what's the big deal? Time really isn't an issue, the defects of our brothers is not something we should be focusing on anyway. Don't see the big deal this may be just a case of the internet making a big deal out of nothing. [/quote] Besides which, we are already encouraged to read and pray through the Sunday readings (that includes the Gospel) before Sunday Mass. The Scriptures are extremely important to our faith and I don't see the problem with emphasizing that during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
dUSt Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1306879712' post='2248375'] Besides which, we are already encouraged to read and pray through the Sunday readings (that includes the Gospel) before Sunday Mass. The Scriptures are extremely important to our faith and I don't see the problem with emphasizing that during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. [/quote] I would never trust a person who is so serious all the time.
HisChildForever Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306879785' post='2248376'] I would never trust a person who is so serious all the time. [/quote] "All the time"? What, do you live next door to me and watch my comings and goings.
HisChildForever Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1306880469' post='2248382'] No, that's what the camera is for. [/quote] This made me laugh lol.
Vincent Vega Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1306880571' post='2248384'] This made me laugh lol. [/quote]
dUSt Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1306880571' post='2248384'] This made me laugh lol. [/quote]
Nihil Obstat Posted May 31, 2011 Author Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306877958' post='2248361'] You keep separating the homily from the Liturgy of the Word. I already explained to you that the homily is part of the Liturgy of the Word. Are you advocating that the English reading be required in addition to the Latin? If so, you're adding to the rubrics. If not, then the English remains "optional" and has no basis in this discussion. [/quote] While having a homily is a part of the rubrics (and not an essential part, mind you. Highly recommended, and on Sundays required), the sermon itself is not governed by rubrics besides the specific section of the GIRM which says "It should be an exposition of some aspect of the readings from Sacred Scripture or of another text from the Ordinary or from the Proper of the Mass of the day and should take into account both the mystery being celebrated and the particular needs of the listeners.", and the section which lays down who may give a homily. To re-read the Gospel in English is not in any sense adding to the rubrics. However it is obvious that re-reading them in English is optional. It is at the priest's discretion. There is no necessity, from the perspective of the Holy Sacrifice, to read the Gospel in English, though as I have said about six times now, since the homily is intended for the faithful, it is quite appropriate for it to be present there. I never once said it should be required. Are you getting old and perhaps need reading glasses?
Nihil Obstat Posted May 31, 2011 Author Posted May 31, 2011 Again spoken by m'learned colleague: A distinction needs to be made that the idea of the homily being part of the Liturgy of the Eucharist is a NO idea; for the Traditional Latin Mass, the homily is a separate incident which is outside the Mass altogether. This still applies today, when speaking about the homily. That is the reason that in some places you will see the pastor remove his maniple. In some places, the priest will remove the chasuble as a sign that it is outside the Mass itself. That is incumbent upon local tradition. The shifting of the ideology of the Liturgy of the Word, the homily was formally included, but many places still consider it to be separate and as such you will see priests/deacons separate it with a sign of the Cross at the beginning and the end of the homily. That is to distinguish it from the Mass itself. Remember, there is no direct mandate for a homily except on Holy Days and Sundays. Another reason I wish the maniple would return to common Roman vestments. :
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now