The Free Masons

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1306876649' post='2248339']
If I remember correctly, my grandmother was more active in the Eastern Star than he was in the Masons. It's too bad that your grandfather never told you what happened. That would be interesting.
[/quote]


I got the impression that he thought breaking that oath of secrecy was dangerous to him and his.

My mother says he was quite adament about the youth group thing, my grandmother had apparntly signed she and her sister up and he went down and removed them. He had no problem with them being in other organizations, just nothing involving the Mason's .

[MithLuin]

A Freemason cannot be buried in a Catholic graveyard. Just sayin'.

I realize that's not a 'why not?' but it would perhaps be worth mentioning to your brother to drive home the point that one has to choose between being Catholic and being a Freemason; you can't be both at once. Basically, the Freemasons were historically very anti-Catholic, and the Church has wanted no part in the organization and continues to ban her members from participation.

It is possible that the 'modern' Freemasons are much less antiCatholic than their predecessors...but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1306850011' post='2248134']
I thought it had something to do with them being a "secret society."

But i've been wrong before
[/quote]


Your not wrong, this is one reason. As a Catholic you are to have no secrets that one cannot tell your confessor, Masons make such a vow.

[White Knight]

The masons according to John Salva in their rituals, try to bring equality to all religions, and asks you to acknowledge this as fact.

Well any faithful, Christian, Catholic or Protestant, Catholic in this case, cannot do this in good conscience, it voilates the very essence of our Profession in a Monotheistic God, even though the Freemasons believe in "The Great Architect." meaning one supreme being, even though it trys to bring all religions together to this belief, it askes Christians, Jews, and Muslims to deannounce its very stances.

Well according to God's relevation the Deposit of Faith, given to us, He has revealed himself to us, and we know who He is and who He is not, and to say we must accept another religion as equal, who doesn't have that, would be asking us to spit in God's face so to speak, We as Catholics can't say that Jesus and Budda are equal, or Sheba and Jesus are the correct path, especially When God Himself, with what relevation He has given mankind, clearly states, that He will not allow other gods to be equal to Him, So Any good knowledgeable servant of God, will know that this would contradicting the first commandment God has given us.

Freemasonry attempts to say it doesn't matter what you call him.

Well Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, say it does matter what you call him.

In short, Freemasonry promotes a path of Religious Indifference, that leads to Agnosticism, and/ or Atheism.

It has and always will be opposed to Catholicism.

[color="#0000FF"][b][url="http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/freemasonry/pmasnry.htm"]Catholicism & Freemasonry[/url][/b][/color]

[White Knight]

[quote name='The Shover Robot' timestamp='1306867167' post='2248238']
They control the British Crown, keep the metric system down, keep Atlantis of the maps, and keep the martians under wraps. They're also responsible for holding back the electric car and keeping Steve Gutenberg a star. They've also been know to rob cavefish of their sight and rig every Oscar night.

They do.
They do.
[/quote]


LOL the Simpsons, Stone Cutters episode, it was funny.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='White Knight' timestamp='1306910904' post='2248613']
The masons according to John Salva in their rituals, try to bring equality to all religions, and asks you to acknowledge this as fact.

Well any faithful, Christian, Catholic or Protestant, Catholic in this case, cannot do this in good conscience, it voilates the very essence of our Profession in a Monotheistic God, even though the Freemasons believe in "The Great Architect." meaning one supreme being, even though it trys to bring all religions together to this belief, it askes Christians, Jews, and Muslims to deannounce its very stances.

Well according to God's relevation the Deposit of Faith, given to us, He has revealed himself to us, and we know who He is and who He is not, and to say we must accept another religion as equal, who doesn't have that, would be asking us to spit in God's face so to speak, We as Catholics can't say that Jesus and Budda are equal, or Sheba and Jesus are the correct path, especially When God Himself, with what relevation He has given mankind, clearly states, that He will not allow other gods to be equal to Him, So Any good knowledgeable servant of God, will know that this would contradicting the first commandment God has given us.

Freemasonry attempts to say it doesn't matter what you call him.

Well Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, say it does matter what you call him.

In short, Freemasonry promotes a path of Religious Indifference, that leads to Agnosticism, and/ or Atheism.

It has and always will be opposed to Catholicism.

[color="#0000FF"][b][url="http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/freemasonry/pmasnry.htm"]Catholicism & Freemasonry[/url][/b][/color]
[/quote]


Where is the syringe? I think we need to administer a dose of Catholicism....Muhahahahaha.

Edited June 1, 2011 by infinitelord1

[stevil]

[quote name='White Knight' timestamp='1306910904' post='2248613']
In short, Freemasonry promotes a path of Religious Indifference, that leads to Agnosticism, and/ or Atheism.

It has and always will be opposed to Catholicism.
[/quote]
I don't know much about Free Mason but from what you are saying it seems to promote religious tolerance more than religious indifference and seems to be tolerant of Catholicism more than opposed to.
It seems that it is Catholicism that is opposed to Free Mason.

Atheism is lack of belief in god, which has no dictated reference to tolerance or opposition of faiths.
Anti theist is about opposition

Edited June 1, 2011 by stevil

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='White Knight' timestamp='1306910904' post='2248613']
In short, Freemasonry promotes a path of Religious Indifference, that leads to Agnosticism, and/ or Atheism.
[/quote]

They're actually opposed to the idea of atheism in fact, and value a belief in god, though not any god in particular.

In fact, they refer to god as the "architect" while people are the masons (using their own symbology).

[White Knight]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1306915606' post='2248620']
I don't know much about Free Mason but from what you are saying it seems to promote religious tolerance more than religious indifference and seems to be tolerant of Catholicism more than opposed to.
It seems that it is Catholicism that is opposed to Free Mason.

Atheism is lack of belief in god, which has no dictated reference to tolerance or opposition of faiths.
Anti theist is about opposition
[/quote]


Freemasons attempt to call it that, however, the common sense factor kicks in with that path, and one can only ignore those questions for so long, before they start to get a "it doesn't matter policy." going on in their head. Ya it may start out as tolerance, but it evenually leads down a road, where people begin to even question the very meaning of religion, "if all lead to heaven, it doesn't matter." which makes people indifferent, because then they wouldn't care. thus it leads to agnostism, or even atheism. It may not be that at first, but thats how it turns out.


It may claim to promote tolerance among all religions, however this thinking is very much a mask to the deeper layers of the lifestyle for a freemason.

[stevil]

[quote name='White Knight' timestamp='1306945745' post='2248734']
Freemasons attempt to call it that, however, the common sense factor kicks in with that path, and one can only ignore those questions for so long, before they start to get a "it doesn't matter policy." going on in their head. Ya it may start out as tolerance, but it evenually leads down a road, where people begin to even question the very meaning of religion, "if all lead to heaven, it doesn't matter." which makes people indifferent, because then they wouldn't care. thus it leads to agnostism, or even atheism. It may not be that at first, but thats how it turns out.


It may claim to promote tolerance among all religions, however this thinking is very much a mask to the deeper layers of the lifestyle for a freemason.
[/quote]
Atheism isn't an "I don't care" path. Atheism is a stance where a person cannot hold onto a belief in gods, they don't and can't beleive, the theories don't match their ideas of reality and there is no bridge. A person that doesn't care is an Apathest.

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='White Knight' timestamp='1306945745' post='2248734']
Freemasons attempt to call it that, however, the common sense factor kicks in with that path, and one can only ignore those questions for so long, before they start to get a "it doesn't matter policy." going on in their head. Ya it may start out as tolerance, but it evenually leads down a road, where people begin to even question the very meaning of religion, "if all lead to heaven, it doesn't matter." which makes people indifferent, because then they wouldn't care. thus it leads to agnostism, or even atheism. It may not be that at first, but thats how it turns out.


It may claim to promote tolerance among all religions, however this thinking is very much a mask to the deeper layers of the lifestyle for a freemason.
[/quote]

You sort of make it sound as if religion is about getting into heaven. It's a way of viewing existence and purpose on Earth, and some of those views gain characteristics that end up getting it called a religion.

The free masons have a higher emphasis on humanism is seems and are influenced by the ideals of the Enlightenment, and that can go into conflict with religions that don't and aren't. It's not that they're tolerant in the sense that they accept all views among their members (you have to be a believer, since the "architect" is in the picture) but they're not religious sectarians.

Though in my view, masonry is a quasi religion, with all the structure, rituals and stuff.

[Tony]

so I've always knew the Church was very much against freemasonry but I was never sure exactly why. (and I don't think a lot of people are since their organization is so hush-hush) well.. I did some investigating, and found two youtube videos of people flipping through a masonic bible. (They weren't masons themselves, they just happened to have a copy of this "Top secret" bible. ) Well, they basically put a pagan and satanic spin on the Christian bible It was all pretty creepy. In the back it claimed "amen" was the name of some pagan god, so amen meant you were praying to it.Don't quote me on this part but the first 3 degrees, they are asking for "light", "More light" and "further light". the further along you get in the degrees, you find this "light" is Lucifer. it was all pretty spooky, and now know very much why the Holy Catholic Church is against freemasonry.


I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post he links here (per phatmass rules) but it was rather easy to find on youtube

[White Knight]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1306956797' post='2248858']
You sort of make it sound as if religion is about getting into heaven. It's a way of viewing existence and purpose on Earth, and some of those views gain characteristics that end up getting it called a religion.

The free masons have a higher emphasis on humanism is seems and are influenced by the ideals of the Enlightenment, and that can go into conflict with religions that don't and aren't. It's not that they're tolerant in the sense that they accept all views among their members (you have to be a believer, since the "architect" is in the picture) but they're not religious sectarians.

Though in my view, masonry is a quasi religion, with all the structure, rituals and stuff.
[/quote]

[b]To XSilverPhinx:[/b] Yes I remember Mr. John Salva addressing that in his interview about how you have to be a believer in the something, and a atheist cannot join their ranks, true. However their philosophy says that on the surface, but once the ball starts rolling, its hard to stop with all the questions leading to other questions. Its almost logically and inevitable that people would almost lose their "sense of reasoning" grow "indifferent, apathetic, agnostic, or even atheistic" thats what John Salva's witness was among his experience, with other masons, they became so cold to the idea of the existance of a Divine Being, that they became ethier agnostics or losing belief in the supernatural all together, thus atheists.


[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1306955746' post='2248823']
Atheism isn't an "I don't care" path. Atheism is a stance where a person cannot hold onto a belief in gods, they don't and can't beleive, the theories don't match their ideas of reality and there is no bridge. A person that doesn't care is an Apathest.
[/quote]

[b]To steviltimestamp:[/b] Apathy from what Ive noticed tends to be more evident in people who claim to be agnostics rather than Atheists. Agnostics aleast acknowledge the possibility, all though dont care enough to explore the issue. Atheists want to have solid belief and definate proof that the supernatural doesn't exist. Most cases both people have apathy, they dont care to explore, however its more likely found in the agnostic, rather than the atheist.

Defination of Agnostic

[quote][i]A person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as god, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience. [/i][/quote]

Defination of Atheist

[quote][i]A person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings. [/i][/quote]


Freemasons even though they profess belief in a "Great Architect" try to take from other religions and place their own names on them. Any good faithful servant of God cannot accept this teaching, thus it contradicts many things within the three major western religions. [b]Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.[/b] Anyone who considers themselves part of these religions cannot, in good faith, accept teachings in opposition to their religion, it violates truth. and the direct Revelation of who God has revealed Himself to be.

Edited June 6, 2011 by White Knight

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='White Knight' timestamp='1307334890' post='2250346']
Yes I remember Mr. John Salva addressing that in his interview about how you have to be a believer in the something, and a atheist cannot join their ranks, true. However their philosophy says that on the surface, but once the ball starts rolling, its hard to stop with all the questions leading to other questions. Its almost logically and inevitable that people would almost lose their "sense of reasoning" grow "indifferent, apathetic, agnostic, or even atheistic" thats what John Salva's witness was among his experience, with other masons, they became so cold to the idea of the existance of a Divine Being, that they became ethier agnostics or losing belief in the supernatural all together, thus atheists.
[/quote]

Could be. I myself don't personally know any masons, but after reading a portion of their a book about freemasonry for freemasons, I was left with a strong humanist impression. I don't know how compatible humanism is with Catholicism for instance, and since beliefs need to be cultivated and encouraged, those who are not immersed somehow might end up loosing their original beliefs and adopting new ones or changing their religious views to something that looks a bit more like deism.

[MithLuin]

Secular humanism isn't very compatible with Christianity, no, but there are Christian forms of humanism. Pope John Paul II's 'Theology of the Body' is very much focused on the experience of being human, for instance, though also an interpretation of the scriptures and in line with traditional Catholic theology. Both St. Thomas More and British writer G. K. Chesterton could be considered Catholic humanists.

Here's a brief address by Pope Benedict XVI which addresses humanism (tangentially) from a Catholic viewpoint: http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=27579

[White Knight]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307335511' post='2250349']
Could be. I myself don't personally know any masons, but after reading a portion of their a book about freemasonry for freemasons, I was left with a strong humanist impression. I don't know how compatible humanism is with Catholicism for instance, and since beliefs need to be cultivated and encouraged, those who are not immersed somehow might end up loosing their original beliefs and adopting new ones or changing their religious views to something that looks a bit more like deism.
[/quote]


Well over the existing time period of the European and American Freemasonry, The Catholic Church for almost 280 years or so, have consistently been opposed to the teachings of Freemasonry, and as a result we've had over 13 popes in that time frame, openly speak out against it, it pretty clear language.

Pope Clement XII 1730-1740
Pope Benedict XIV 1740-1758
Pope Clement XIII 1758-1769
Pope Pius VI 1795-1799
Pope Pius VII 1800-1823
Pope Leo XII 1823-1829
Pope Pius VIII 1829-1830
Pope Gregory XVI 1831-1846
Pope Pius IX 1848-1878
Pope Leo XIII 1878-1903
Pope Pius X 1903-1914
Pope Benedict XV 1914-1922
Pope Pius XI 1922-1939

The 1983 [b]"Quaesitum est"[/b] document approved by Pope Blessed John Paul the Great, re-addresses and re-enforces the opposition to Freemasonry.

[u][i][quote][color="#0000FF"][b]Quaesitum est[/b][/color][/quote][/i][/u]
[i][b][quote]"The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion...."
"...the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden."[/quote][/b][/i]


As for many reasons I have already posted before hand and many others, the promotion of freemasonry's philosophy on religion opposes not just the Catholic Church's stance on God, in general, but the other religions too. You can't call God , Jesus, Allah, Sheba and Budda, its a direct violation of the teachings of how God Himself has chosen to reveal who He is to mankind.

People may not like it, but not everyone can be right, its mockery of religion and intelligence to try to say they are all the same, and it doesn't matter. I'm sorry but thats just not right [i][u][color="#0000FF"][b]I mean no disrespect by this statement, just pointing out a fact and opinion.[/b][/color][/u][/i]

Thats not how God said it or does it for that matter. He said who He was and is, and is not. This requires people to sometimes let go and accept.


God Bless You.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Tony' timestamp='1306957391' post='2248870']
so I've always knew the Church was very much against freemasonry but I was never sure exactly why. (and I don't think a lot of people are since their organization is so hush-hush) well.. I did some investigating, and found two youtube videos of people flipping through a masonic bible. (They weren't masons themselves, they just happened to have a copy of this "Top secret" bible. ) Well, they basically put a pagan and satanic spin on the Christian bible It was all pretty creepy. In the back it claimed "amen" was the name of some pagan god, so amen meant you were praying to it.Don't quote me on this part but the first 3 degrees, they are asking for "light", "More light" and "further light". the further along you get in the degrees, you find this "light" is Lucifer. it was all pretty spooky, and now know very much why the Holy Catholic Church is against freemasonry.


I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post he links here (per phatmass rules) but it was rather easy to find on youtube
[/quote]
I've heard about the "amen" thing before, namely because some transliterations of the Egyptian god Amun write it as "Amen". We don't actually know the vowels for the Egyptian language, though, so we just insert vowels that make it pronounceable for us. The actual consonants for it would give a transliteration of Jmn/Ymn.

And I'll stop before getting too off-topic.

[stevil]

[quote name='White Knight' timestamp='1307334890' post='2250346']
[b]To steviltimestamp:[/b] Apathy from what Ive noticed tends to be more evident in people who claim to be agnostics rather than Atheists. Agnostics aleast acknowledge the possibility, all though dont care enough to explore the issue. Atheists want to have solid belief and definate proof that the supernatural doesn't exist. Most cases both people have apathy, they dont care to explore, however its more likely found in the agnostic, rather than the atheist.
[/quote]
The definitions of Atheist and Agnostic that you have quoted are correct but your understanding of them is not.
Agnostic testifies to lack of knowledge of gods, Atheist declares a lack of belief in god. I myself fit both labels, I know of no knowledge of gods (only theories), I do not hold a belief in any god.

You are assuming incorrectly that Atheists and Agnostics are Apathetic, this is not the case. There was a study done ([url="http://pewforum.org/other-beliefs-and-practices/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey.aspx"]U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey[/url]) the group classified as Atheists and Agnostics scored better than all of the theistic groups. This highlights that we are not apathetic and do seek information pertaining to all religions, and as you probably already know we also have a great grasp of scientific information. In my opinion this is an indicator that we are seeking the truth from a broad range of sources.

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307356225' post='2250392']
The definitions of Atheist and Agnostic that you have quoted are correct but your understanding of them is not.
Agnostic testifies to lack of knowledge of gods, Atheist declares a lack of belief in god. I myself fit both labels, I know of no knowledge of gods (only theories), I do not hold a belief in any god.[/quote]

Since they're coming from a viewpoint in which god is obvious to them, I don't know how that may affect their understanding of what agnostic athiests mean when they call themselves agnostic athiests.

I think that for the sake of clarity, it's good to give examples of this, such as "I [i]don't believe[/i] in unicorns, but I [i]don't know [/i]if they exist".

***

White Knight, substitute "unicorns" for "gods", and that's basically the agnostic atheist thinking in regards to gods, and it's subtly different from saying "I believe that no unicorns exist".

Edited June 6, 2011 by xSilverPhinx

[4588686]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry#Current_position_of_the_Catholic_Church"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry#Current_position_of_the_Catholic_Church[/url]