xSilverPhinx Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 In another discussion Amppax wrote the following: [quote]We've talked a lot about proving God here (at some point or another) and for the most part, I would assume (from everything that you've said) that you believe we can't prove God. I would somewhat agree with this, but I would say for us, it is obvious that God exists, that is the basic axiom that upon which our entire philosophy rests.[/quote] I found this to be intriguing, especially since, to me it is not obvious that god exists. I'm curious to know what your thoughts on this is. So...what is God?
AudreyGrace Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 I think that if there was no God, people wouldn't spend so much energy trying to prove that something they do not believe does not exist. From what I've seen, there is an eternal longing in each person to find truth about life, whatever that truth may be. In one way or another, they always end up with whether or not there is a God. The fact that God is what people are so concerned about, the idea that shakes them the most, what they desire to know about the most, is proof that a God exists. For so many people to share that common thought and urge is extraordinary. In an extremely general sense, God is the ultimate divine power from which all things come and are given life.
Maximilianus Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 (edited) [left]Olvidate[/left] Edited June 6, 2011 by Maximilianus
cmotherofpirl Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 There has to be a first Cause. Our sense of right and wrong and fairness are built into our species, it didn't come about by chance. Our absolute sense in our species that life does not end at death. My favorite quote on the relationship between science and religion: Science can purify religion from error and superstition; religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes. Each can draw the other into a wider world, a world in which both can flourish. Pope John Paul II the Great.
AudreyGrace Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1307333239' post='2250334'] There has to be a first Cause. Our sense of right and wrong and fairness are built into our species, it didn't come about by chance. Our absolute sense in our species that life does not end at death. My favorite quote on the relationship between science and religion: Science can purify religion from error and superstition; religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes. Each can draw the other into a wider world, a world in which both can flourish. Pope John Paul II the Great. [/quote] I can't love a post more than I love this.
xSilverPhinx Posted June 6, 2011 Author Posted June 6, 2011 Thanks for the input so far. Just to remove possible fuzzy areas in my understanding of what you guys mean, would there be major things that god is not?
stevil Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 [quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307330083' post='2250322'] what is God? [/quote] I don't think the noun god has ever been clearly defined. The bible ascribes it to a personality but the characteristics of a god, seperate from the personality are not clear.
CephaDrigan Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 [quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1307330854' post='2250324'] I think that if there was no God, people wouldn't spend so much energy trying to prove that something they do not believe does not exist. From what I've seen, there is an eternal longing in each person to find truth about life, whatever that truth may be. In one way or another, they always end up with whether or not there is a God. The fact that God is what people are so concerned about, the idea that shakes them the most, what they desire to know about the most, is proof that a God exists. For so many people to share that common thought and urge is extraordinary. In an extremely general sense, God is the ultimate divine power from which all things come and are given life. [/quote] Sounds like a G. K. Chesterton quote..."If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
stevil Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 (edited) "If there were no God, " we would be in exactly the same situation that we find ourselves in today. Edited June 6, 2011 by stevil
Papist Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 What drives a man to do good deeds. For example, why would a man jump into a lake instinctively when he sees a boy drowning[how is a total stranger], totally disregarding the NO SWIMMING signpost.
AudreyGrace Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307359615' post='2250397'] "If there were no God, " we would be in exactly the same situation that we find ourselves in today. [/quote] How? Please explain further.
Luigi Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 Thomas Aquinas defines God better than anyone else - arguably. One problem with reading Aquinas is that it's pretty arcane stuff - commentators usually assume that readers already know lots of philosophy. Wikipedia has an article on him and his explanation of God. Like all Wikipedia articles, it's a bare-naked introduction to a complex topic, but I think they do a good job of simplifying and clarifying for inquiring minds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas#Nature_of_God Lastly, Aquinas doesn't so much [i]define[/i] God as [i]describe[/i] God, or list the traits of God.
Papist Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307359615' post='2250397'] "If there were no God, " we would be in exactly the same situation that we find ourselves in today. [/quote] And what situation is that?
xSilverPhinx Posted June 6, 2011 Author Posted June 6, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1307374380' post='2250424'] Thomas Aquinas defines God better than anyone else - arguably. One problem with reading Aquinas is that it's pretty arcane stuff - commentators usually assume that readers already know lots of philosophy. Wikipedia has an article on him and his explanation of God. Like all Wikipedia articles, it's a bare-naked introduction to a complex topic, but I think they do a good job of simplifying and clarifying for inquiring minds. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas#Nature_of_God"]http://en.wikipedia....s#Nature_of_God[/url] Lastly, Aquinas doesn't so much [i]define[/i] God as [i]describe[/i] God, or list the traits of God. [/quote] [list=1][*][i]God is simple, without composition of parts, such as body and soul, or matter and form.[/i][*][i]God is perfect, lacking nothing. That is, God is distinguished from other beings on account of God's complete actuality.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas#cite_note-70"] [/url][/sup]Thomas defined God as the '[/i][i]Ipse Actus Essendi subsistens,' subsisting act of being.[/i][*][i]God is infinite. That is, God is not finite in the ways that created beings are physically, intellectually, and emotionally limited. This infinity is to be distinguished from infinity of size and infinity of number.[/i][*][i]God is immutable, incapable of change on the levels of God's essence and character.[/i][*][i]God is one, without diversification within God's self. The unity of God is such that God's essence is the same as God's existence. In Thomas's words, "in itself the proposition 'God exists' is necessarily true, for in it subject and predicate are the same."[/i][/list] The way I see Aquinas' description of god looks like a mix of logical arguments, but doesn't make an interventionist or even intelligent/capable of [i]conscious[/i] intent god more obvious. Numbers 1 and 5: When you get caught in infinite regress, if you're looking for an answer you're going to have to eventually stop at something that is simple and has no parts. Number 2: 'Subsisting act of being' to me looks like the projection of people's own being onto existence itself. People are the minds that observe the universe (analogous to the tree falling in the forest would only make a sound if there were ears to hear it.) Number 3: So god would be infinite in...Being? I'm not going to pretend that it makes sense to me... Number 4: I guess once you attach the word 'god' to something, you're delineating it in meaning and so it would have to be immutable in order to mean the same thing to a person. So, I hope you can see why god is not obvious. The fact that I exist is obvious to me, and the fact that objective reality exists is too, though I don't use the word 'god' to explain either. Edited June 6, 2011 by xSilverPhinx
sixpence Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 [quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='[url="http://xisbn.worldcat.org:80/liblook2/resolve.htm?res_id=4826&rft.isbn=1307337031&url_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info:ofi/fmt:kev:mtx:book"]1307337031[/url]' post='2250355'] would there be major things that god is not? [/quote] I think that some Jewish philosophers like Maimonides?? have a rule that one can only really describe what God Is NOT since we cannot fully understand what He IS.... lol
xSilverPhinx Posted June 6, 2011 Author Posted June 6, 2011 [quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1307383500' post='2250465'] I think that some Jewish philosophers like Maimonides?? have a rule that one can only really describe what God Is NOT since we cannot fully understand what He IS.... lol [/quote] So much for non fuzzy understanding then...
stevil Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1307375213' post='2250427'] And what situation is that? [/quote] Many theories about how we came to be, giving answers that cannot be proven or disproven, conflicting with each other and even themselves. People converting from theory to theory. People disbelieving in all the theories. Wars between people believing in conflicting theories. Everyone claiming to know the truth.
Amppax Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 In the original post (aka mine that phin is quoting) I meant to say it has become obvious to me. It is analogous to overlooking something that is right in front of you. You search for something everywhere, and when you stop and think, it was right in front of you the whole time. That is more what I originally meant. Carry on
Mr.Cat Posted June 8, 2011 Posted June 8, 2011 [quote][b][url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm"]Summa Theologica[/url][/b] "... Therefore, that God exists is not self-evident... Now because we do not know the essence of God, the proposition is not self-evident to us; but needs to be demonstrated by things that are more known to us..." [/quote]Perhaps the most honest and humble of all theological admissions. I had to read about the summa theologica when I studied world religions, this is a very distinctive aspect of Catholic theology among world religions.
xSilverPhinx Posted June 8, 2011 Author Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1307491184' post='2251063'] In the original post (aka mine that phin is quoting) I meant to say it has become obvious to me. It is analogous to overlooking something that is right in front of you. You search for something everywhere, and when you stop and think, it was right in front of you the whole time. That is more what I originally meant. Carry on [/quote] Like adding 1+1? Would you say that you discovered god by yourself or was god shown to you? Or both at the same time?
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