Do You Think A Vocation Is A Thing Only Between You And God?

[organwerke]

I often wonder about this matter.
There are persons who give you advices or that say things that have a great influence in your life and also in the choices you make.
It has happened to me in some circumstances and I often painfully regret for something that has been said to me. Then I say to myself that I have my own free will but nonetheless also other persons have a great influence in our life and our choices.
I find in particular that I don't feel I'm a free person, I too often are influenced by the circumstances in which I live as if there were invisible ties that are almost impossible to be broken.
You now would ask me what this has to do with a vocation...well I don't think only of a "religious vocation" even if it is deeply in my mind too... I simply mean : "your vocation" in this world. But I hope I was able to express my point...

[carmenchristi]

Well... as a quick reply, I'd say that with just a little reflection we can see that a vocation cannot possibly be just between me and God, because most vocations in order to be entered into need the consensus of someone else. I'm pretty sure you were expressing something a bit different in your post, but I'm stating the obvious because I think that it is very much related to what you are talking about. For example, a person might feel called to marriage, but he/she would obviously need to find someone else also willing to contract a marriage. Religious vocations must be accepted by the community. Even if one felt a specific profession (for example doctor, teacher etc.) to be the particular aspect of his or her vocation, it would still require the consensus of someone else. This being said, it seems logical that other people in our lives can be instruments in our vocational journey. Take a look at the first chapter of John... (after the prologue) one disciple told another, who told another.... after that Jesus called them all, but if it weren't for John the baptist, who knows if they would have ever even met Jesus. Maybe, but the fact remains that John was the instrument that led to their calling.

[cmaD2006]

A (religious vocation) is between me, God, and the Church. God is the one who calls. I respond. The Church confirms that call and response.

A religious vocation is to serve others. In a contemplative setting the way I serve others is by way of praying and sacrifice. In a more active setting there are specific ways that I provide a service to the Church.

A religious vocation is service in Love. The Love I have for my Lord fuels the Love I have for my brothers and sisters. Without that Love a religious vocation doesn't make sense.

I think this also applies to other vocations ... a vocation is a self gift to God and to others, in (sacrificial) service for the greater good. A married person gives him or herself to the spouse, and is called to sacrificially serve each other (ex: I give up my cinnamon dolce latte for the good of my family and its finances instead of being selfish and getting one everyday in spite of the family).

[Nunsense]

What a truly fascinating question - thank you for bringing it up. I have such limited time and bandwidth online that I don't read all of the posts, but the title of this thread interested me right away! It almost belongs on the Transmundane phorum because it is so deep!

I have to think about this more because my first reaction is to say that it is between God and me alone but reading carmenchristi's post, I can see arguments for the other side as well - that is why the question is so good. It makes me think!

Perhaps either case could be stated or even combined, as cmaria has put it quite well too. I need to think much more before I can respond myself though.

Fascinating!

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1308088451' post='2253767']
I often wonder about this matter.
There are persons who give you advices or that say things that have a great influence in your life and also in the choices you make.
It has happened to me in some circumstances and I often painfully regret for something that has been said to me. Then I say to myself that I have my own free will but nonetheless also other persons have a great influence in our life and our choices.
I find in particular that I don't feel I'm a free person, I too often are influenced by the circumstances in which I live as if there were invisible ties that are almost impossible to be broken.
You now would ask me what this has to do with a vocation...well I don't think only of a "religious vocation" even if it is deeply in my mind too... I simply mean : "your vocation" in this world. But I hope I was able to express my point...
[/quote]

Augustine wanted to be a monk, in a community of monks for the rest of his life.

The people siezed him to make him their bishop. He wasn't even a priest.

I do believe people's perceptions are very important to discernment. I would not have found my vocation if it hadn't been for that sort of encouragement.

[Nunsense]

Okay, here's what I have come to for now. I think it has to be a combination of things. First, and most important, is our own relationship with God. Second, is the way God uses people in our lives to help us, challenge us, communicate with us.

God doesn't usually communicate supernaturally with a person (although He does do this as well), but He uses other people to convey to us things that we might not have considered ourselves.

But because we have free will, we choose the ways in which we respond, and the time we take to respond.

Just for example. I started on my discernment to religious life seriously just over four years ago. This was in response to my own personal relationship with God and the calling I felt that finally could not be ignored. So I used my free will to seek out a spiritual director. This very holy priest and hermit then said something that was so significant that it must truly have been god speaking through Him because it changed everything for me and brought me closer to Jesus than I had ever been before. I responded to what this priest said immediately and got an immediate response.

But, and here is where our free will sometimes changes things. He also made a comment about discerning with Benedictines but instead of taking his advice, I held out for the Carmelites and he did not push his opinion on me. I thought that he was just saying them because he was a Benedictine, instead of hearing god's voice speaking through him.

Four years down the track, I am now finally discerning with Benedictines and I can only wonder if I had listened to this priest when he first said this to me, how things would have turned out. That doesn't mean that God hasn't used every event and person along the way to help me grow in faith and trust, because He has - but then He can also write straight with crooked lines.

But why I listened to the priest on one matter and not on another is interesting to me. Perhaps I was just not ready to hear, or perhaps I needed to walk this other path first. Either way, my vocation was a combination of my own relationship with God and His use of another person to help guide me.

We are all one body in Christ after all.

[organwerke]

Thank you all for your very interesting and deep replies.
I find so many things in common with me in all of your answers.
I hope I can add something too to my first post when I have more time to write.
But please, keep on sharing your thoughts and experiences: they are so helpful and intersting for me!

[Lisa]

Sometimes circumstances can also be a factor in a vocation. It is primarily between you and God, but sometimes what you feel God call you to might not be possible. This could be temporary- i.e. debt or even more permanent- i.e. your health. In the end, those circumstances are viewed as God's Will, but they are what you would sometimes call "external" factors outside of your spiritual life. Of course, the spiritual life encompasses everything as we are called to "pray without ceasing," and we know that in the end, God's Will will be fulfilled if we earnestly seek it.

Also, I think people's opinions [i]may[/i] be a source of revelation of the Lord's plan. They can confirm a call that you've felt by saying "I can really see you doing that." But, it wouldn't be prudent to base your discernment on other people's comments- because EVERYBODY has an opinion, and they probably all won't be your cheerleader. We've seen it in the report on sisters and priests making final vows; most of them were discouraged by at least one family member.

[BarbTherese]

Some know in their hearts and cannot doubt that God is calling them and to where. With others, The Holy Spirit may speak to them through other people or events, perhaps a book or sermon, a conversation etc.
And again, always most wisely affirmed by sound spiritual direction. Personally, I think it is possible for even sound spiritual direction to make a mistake (not sinful in content), but in following it, The Lord will not allow one to go astray. Obedience is a beautiful and powerful virtue.

[quote][u]Gospel of John Ch 3 [/u]"[8] The Spirit breatheth where he will; and thou hearest his voice, but thou knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."[/quote]


[quote]New Advent
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15498a.htm
"[u]Ecclesiastical and Religious Vocation[/u]"
Ordinarily this vocation is revealed as the result of deliberation according to the principles of reason and faith; in extraordinary cases, by supernatural light so abundantly shed upon the soul as to render deliberation unnecessary. There are two signs of vocation: the one negative, the absence of impediment; the other positive, a firm resolution by the help of God to serve Him in the ecclesiastical or religious state. [/quote]

The whole entry in New Advent is worth a read.........and although referring to religious life per se, some principals can be applied to any vocation or call.

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='Lisa' timestamp='1308141032' post='2253973']
Also, I think people's opinions [i]may[/i] be a source of revelation of the Lord's plan. They can confirm a call that you've felt by saying "I can really see you doing that." But, it wouldn't be prudent to base your discernment on other people's comments- because EVERYBODY has an opinion, and they probably all won't be your cheerleader. We've seen it in the report on sisters and priests making final vows; most of them were discouraged by at least one family member.
[/quote]

Very true. I've been reading St. Faustina's diary and her parents [i]forbade[/i] her from entering the convent! They want what's best for us, so their intention is good (most of the time).

[Nunsense]

[quote name='LaPetiteSoeur' timestamp='1308144084' post='2253979']
Very true. I've been reading St. Faustina's diary and her parents [i]forbade[/i] her from entering the convent! They want what's best for us, so their intention is good (most of the time).
[/quote]


So true. My family all think I'm a religious fanatic.

And although good spiritual direction is essential, the key word here is 'good'. St John of the Cross said that there is nothing worse for the soul than a bad spiritual director! And I've had a few of those as well. Discernment is needed for everything!

[FutureSister2009]

I think it is mainly between you and God but you also need people to pray for you. That's really important.

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='FutureSister2009' timestamp='1308148466' post='2253988']
I think it is mainly between you and God but you also need people to pray for you. That's really important.


[/quote]

Tis true. The call to any state of life is between God and us. We do have help and opinions from the "outside"--many times because we're so connected. We should not pray only for thsoe discerning a religious vocation, but also those discerning the married and single life!

Hopefully, all those discerning have support from somewhere, especially from a family member, friend, religious/priestly friend, or even from Phatmass. It's hard to go at this alone--we need the support of someone who cares for us!

[TeresaBenedicta]

No, I don't think a vocation is a thing between only the individual and God.

Marriage requires at least a second individual, plus witnesses.

Priesthood requires the call of the people and the Church through the bishop.

Religious life requires the community and the individual.

God calls in many ways- through immediate communication with the individual, through others, and through circumstances.

Our vocations are also not meant only for us as individuals. Marriage is ordered to the salvation of the entire family. Priesthood is ordered toward the salvation of the people of God through the sacramental life. Religious life, likewise, is ordered to the salvation of the people of God through prayer and works.

Yes, our vocations are necessarily connected with others. However, that doesn't mean we need to listen to every single person's opinion of our vocation. Only those with whom it is deemed appropriate- spiritual director, Bishop, the religious community... In fact, St. Thomas says NOT to seek the consultation of friends and families if one thinks they have a religious vocation. Give it a try. If God wishes for you to be a religious, then he will provide the graces necessary.

There is certainly an element of the individual and God, and I don't disregard that at all. But it's important to remember that every vocation is meant to be a gift of self for others, and in that way, it can [i]never[/i] be just between you and God.

[To Jesus Through Mary]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1308159168' post='2254066']
In fact, St. Thomas says NOT to seek the consultation of friends and families if one thinks they have a religious vocation.
[/quote]

Haven't heard this one- very interesting. Definitely see the wisdom in that first hand from having done the opposite.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='To Jesus Through Mary' timestamp='1308169259' post='2254168']
Haven't heard this one- very interesting. Definitely see the wisdom in that first hand from having done the opposite.
[/quote]

Yup. ST II-II Q. 189 A. 10:

[quote]
Article 10. Whether it is praiseworthy to enter religion without taking counsel of many, and previously deliberating for a long time?

Objection 1. It would not seem praiseworthy to enter religion without taking counsel of many, and previously deliberating for a long time. For it is written (1 John 4:1): "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God." Now sometimes a man's purpose of entering religion is not of God, since it often comes to naught through his leaving the religious life; for it is written (Acts 5:38-39): "If this counsel or this work be of God, you cannot overthrow it." Therefore it would seem that one ought to make a searching inquiry before entering religion.

Objection 2. Further, it is written (Proverbs 25:9): "Treat thy cause with thy friend." Now a man's cause would seem to be especially one that concerns a change in his state of life. Therefore seemingly one ought not to enter religion without discussing the matter with one's friends.

Objection 3. Further, our Lord (Luke 14:28) in making a comparison with a man who has a mind to build a tower, says that he doth "first sit down and reckon the charges that are necessary, whether he have wherewithal to finish it," lest he become an object of mockery, for that "this man began to build and was not able to finish." Now the wherewithal to build the tower, as Augustine says (Ep. ad Laetum ccxliii), is nothing less than that "each one should renounce all his possessions." Yet it happens sometimes that many cannot do this, nor keep other religious observances; and in signification of this it is stated (1 Samuel 17:39) that David could not walk in Saul's armor, for he was not used to it. Therefore it would seem that one ought not to enter religion without long deliberation beforehand and taking counsel of many.

On the contrary, It is stated (Matthew 4:20) that upon our Lord's calling them, Peter and Andrew "immediately leaving their nets, followed Him." Here Chrysostom says (Hom. xiv in Matth.): "Such obedience as this does Christ require of us, that we delay not even for a moment."

I answer that, Long deliberation and the advice of many are required in great matters of doubt, as the Philosopher says (Ethic. iii, 3); while advice is unnecessary in matters that are certain and fixed. Now with regard to entering religion three points may be considered. First, the entrance itself into religion, considered by itself; and thus it is certain that entrance into religion is a greater good, and to doubt about this is to disparage Christ Who gave this counsel. Hence Augustine says (De Verb. Dom., Serm. c, 2): "The East," that is Christ, "calleth thee, and thou turnest to the West," namely mortal and fallible man. Secondly, the entrance into religion may be considered in relation to the strength of the person who intends to enter. And here again there is no room for doubt about the entrance to religion, since those who enter religion trust not to be able to stay by their own power, but by the assistance of the divine power, according to Isaiah 40:31, "They that hope in the Lord shall renew their strength, they shall take wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Yet if there be some special obstacle (such as bodily weakness, a burden of debts, or the like) in such cases a man must deliberate and take counsel with such as are likely to help and not hinder him. Hence it is written (Sirach 37:12): "Treat with a man without religion concerning holiness [The Douay version supplies the negative: 'Treat not . . . nor with . . . '], with an unjust man concerning justice," meaning that one should not do so, wherefore the text goes on (Sirach 37:14-15), "Give no heed to these in any matter of counsel, but be continually with a holy man." On these matters, however, one should not take long deliberation. Wherefore Jerome says (Ep. and Paulin. liii): "Hasten, I pray thee, cut off rather than loosen the rope that holds the boat to the shore." Thirdly, we may consider the way of entering religion, and which order one ought to enter, and about such matters also one may take counsel of those who will not stand in one's way.

Reply to Objection 1. The saying: "Try the spirits, if they be of God," applies to matters admitting of doubt whether the spirits be of God; thus those who are already in religion may doubt whether he who offers himself to religion be led by the spirit of God, or be moved by hypocrisy. Wherefore they must try the postulant whether he be moved by the divine spirit. But for him who seeks to enter religion there can be no doubt but that the purpose of entering religion to which his heart has given birth is from the spirit of God, for it is His spirit "that leads" man "into the land of uprightness" (Psalm 142:10).

Nor does this prove that it is not of God that some turn back; since not all that is of God is incorruptible: else corruptible creatures would not be of God, as the Manicheans hold, nor could some who have grace from God lose it, which is also heretical. But God's "counsel" whereby He makes even things corruptible and changeable, is imperishable according to Isaiah 46:10, "My counsel shall stand and all My will shall be done." Hence the purpose of entering religion needs not to be tried whether it be of God, because "it requires no further demonstration," as a gloss says on 1 Thessalonians 5:21, "Prove all things."

Reply to Objection 2. Even as "the flesh lusteth against the spirit" (Galatians 5:17), so too carnal friends often thwart our spiritual progress, according to Micah 7:6, "A man's enemies are they of his own household." Wherefore Cyril expounding Luke 9:61, "Let me first take my leave of them that are at my house," says [Cf. St. Thomas's Catena Aurea]: "By asking first to take his leave of them that were at his house, he shows he was somewhat of two minds. For to communicate with his neighbors, and consult those who are unwilling to relish righteousness, is an indication of weakness and turning back. Hence he hears our Lord say: 'No man putting his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God,' because he looks back who seeks delay in order to go home and confer with his kinsfolk."

Reply to Objection 3. The building of the tower signifies the perfection of Christian life; and the renunciation of one's possessions is the wherewithal to build this tower. Now no one doubts or deliberates about wishing to have the wherewithal, or whether he is able to build the tower if he have the wherewithal, but what does come under deliberation is whether one has the wherewithal. Again it need not be a matter of deliberation whether one ought to renounce all that one has, or whether by so doing one may be able to attain to perfection; whereas it is a matter of deliberation whether that which one is doing amounts to the renunciation of all that he has, since unless he does renounce (which is to have the wherewithal) he cannot, as the text goes on to state, be Christ's disciple, and this is to build the tower.

The misgiving of those who hesitate as to whether they may be able to attain to perfection by entering religion is shown by many examples to be unreasonable. Hence Augustine says (Confess. viii, 11): "On that side whither I had set my face, and whither I trembled to go, there appeared to me the chaste dignity of continency . . . honestly alluring me to come and doubt not, and stretching forth to receive and embrace me, her holy hands full of multitudes of good examples. There were so many young men and maidens here, a multitude of youth and every age, grave widows and aged virgins . . . And she smiled at me with a persuasive mockery as though to say: Canst not thou what these youths and these maidens can? Or can they either in themselves, and not rather in the Lord their God? . . . Why standest thou in thyself, and so standest not? Cast thyself upon Him; fear not, He will not withdraw Himself that thou shouldst fall. Cast thyself fearlessly upon Him: He will receive and will heal thee."

The example quoted of David is not to the point, because "the arms of Saul," as a gloss on the passage observes, "are the sacraments of the Law, as being burdensome": whereas religion is the sweet yoke of Christ, for as Gregory says (Moral. iv, 33), "what burden does He lay on the shoulders of the mind, Who commands us to shun all troublesome desires, Who warns us to turn aside from the rough paths of this world?"

To those indeed who take this sweet yoke upon themselves He promises the refreshment of the divine fruition and the eternal rest of their souls.

To which may He Who made this promise bring us, Jesus Christ our Lord, "Who is over all things God blessed for ever. Amen." [/quote]