Trinity Defense

[HomeTeamFamily]

ok i read through most of the stuff in the reference section and it is more advanced than i need......im looking for a boiled down, easy to understand argument or two that proves the three natures of the One God.......any help would be great.....im woking with a friend who came to Mass for the very first time today and had some questions for me but i wasnt sure how to defend the Trinity

thanks pham

adam

[HomeTeamFamily]

no one?

[Fiat_Voluntas_Tua]

Well there are many many verses in the Bible that talk about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

i will give this some thought...I will try to get back to you tommorow.

Pax et Agape per Maria, Andy

[phatcatholic]

lanky,

these will probably be the easiest ones to understand:

--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/God_in_Three_Persons.asp"]God in Three Persons[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/One_True_God.asp"]The One True God[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp"]The Trinity[/url]

if u need further explanation just let me know.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[HomeTeamFamily]

yea i looked at those and they all dive pretty deep into like Biblical support and whatnot but the person im dealing with needs like practical examples and easy to understand language....not theology babble (no offense)

the rev had a pretty good analogy for me so ill use that but anything else would be awesome

thx for the links phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

lanky,

every analogy will be quite inadequate, especially when it comes to the trinity, but i know of a few that may help:

[b]--God is like a 3-leaf clover:[/b] 3 leaves but one clover, like the Trinity is 3 persons, but one God

[b]--God is Love:[/b] this is one that Augustine uses, i believe. God is Love. Love must be shared or it is turned inward and becomes selfish. so the Father, b/c the abundance of love that is His very essense, spawned or "begot" the Son. the fruit of the Love between the Father and the Son is the Holy Spirit. But, its all Love

[b]--God is like the sun:[/b] in this analogy, the Father would be the sun, the Son (Jesus) would be the sunlight or the rays from the sun, and the Holy Spirit would be the heat from the sun and the sunlight. they are all entities of the same thing.

[b]--God is like water:[/b] 3 persons but 1 God, just like u can have liquid water, ice, and steam but its all water (probably the most inadequate of all the analogies)

[b]--God is like a triangle[/b]: a triangle has 3 sides, but one shape. all three sides are equal (signifying the 3 equal natures, although there are 3 distinct sides)

[b]--God is like the multiplication of 1:[/b] God looks like this math problem: 1 x 1 x 1 = 1

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited April 26, 2004 by phatcatholic

[HomeTeamFamily]

those are awesome thanks

how does one account for the instances of Jesus praying to the Father then....if He was the Father.....

[thicke]

One thing to remember is that we are talking about the three persons of God, not three natures.

That's why I don't really like this this analogy:


[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Apr 25 2004, 11:29 PM'][b]--God is like water:[/b] 3 persons but 1 God, just like u can have liquid water, ice, and steam but its all water (probably the most inadequate of all the analogies)
[/quote]


It implies that God has three natures without three persons, just as water has three different states or natures. This a heresy known as modalism.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10448a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10448a.htm[/url]

We need to stress the three persons of the Trinity when defending this.

[HomeTeamFamily]

so its three persons with one nature....what is the nature defined as??

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='thicke' date='Apr 26 2004, 09:49 AM'] One thing to remember is that we are talking about the three persons of God, not three natures.

That's why I don't really like this this analogy:





It implies that God has three natures without three persons, just as water has three different states or natures. This a heresy known as modalism.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10448a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10448a.htm[/url]

We need to stress the three persons of the Trinity when defending this. [/quote]
right, that's why i added that the water analogy was the weakest of the 6 analogies i provided.

lanky........when we speak of 3 persons, but 1 "nature" i believe the word "essence" could be used as well, if that helps. the nature or essence of all 3 persons is "divinity." also, the Son (Jesus) prays to the Father b/c they are two distinct persons. the Son is not the Father (b/c they are distinct in "personhood"), but they are both God b/c they are equal in nature.

if this is still confusing, i understand. the best thing to do is to read as much about the trinity as you possibly can. even if u don't understand it, try as hard as you can to wrap your brain around it. once you become acclamated w/ the vocabulary, and the ways in which theologians describe the trinity, it will become easier to understand........or at least to accept.

i hope this helps......pax christi,
phatcatholic

[HomeTeamFamily]

thanks phatcatholic.....it is kinda confusing....and frustrating because i want to share this with my friend but i want to make sure i understand enough to do so accurately......

[Circle_Master]

In the same way you say you have one army, we have one God.

The army functions as a unit, and is known as a unit, but made up of many individuals.

God goes deeper than that, and as God is known as a unit made up of 3 persons, he actually is one in essence unlike the army.

(maybe that would be helpful, it's built off of the meaning of one in Dt. 6:4)

[Aloysius]

God is infinite.

infinity times three is still infinity.

the three persons are all fully the infinite God.

let's say you were to have 3 different infinities counted by 3's, just one starts at 1 one starts at 2 and one starts at 3

1, 4, 7, 10... --->
2, 5, 8, 11... --->
3, 6, 9, 12... --->

they're all different, but they're all exactly the same at the same time.

now, WHY is this?

because GOD IS LOVE!!!! and before the world, before the angels, before heaven earth and hell, God was still love, and He must have loved someone! was He at one point a selfish God who only loved Himself? NOT A CHANCE! Because God is Love, The Son has always been begotten of the Father's love. Every second, every milisecond, every infinitely small fraction of a second in all of history, The Son has been begotten of the Father because of the Father's Love, and the Father's love is the Holy Spirit. The Son is thus, by His very nature, A SON in every single point in history, he is at every point born of the Father through the Father's Love (The Holy Spirit). If this were not true, you must deal with the theological error of a soley selfishly loving God at the begining of time. And likewise, as the Son too is inifinity, God, He is LOVE. And because of the Son's Love, which is also the Holy Spirit, The Father must exist for Him to love.

So basically, the Son must exist because the Father is Love and must always love someone. And the Father must exist because the Son is Love and must always love someone. And the Love that they share is eternal and is so amazingly infinite that it is a whole other infinite person.

Pax et Amorque Christi!

[phatcatholic]

word is bomb aloy...........i think i'll put ur last post under "non-catholic christians".............the oneness pentecostals would benefit greatly from your analogy

[Circle_Master]

2 possible problems with it

1) It is not selfish for God to love himself (see Desiring God by John Piper for a comprehensive argument on this)
2) Infinity in series can be measured, but only a nerd like me would know that

[Quietfire]

May I jump in also..
I dont wish to throw this discussion off but after reading all the responses I am still somewhat stumped by the Holy Spirit.

I started talking about this on another thread and it ended up throwing that original discussion off course.(my fault- sorry again, Likos!)

I 'get it' when it comes to the Father and the Son.
Simply, for my mind, and bear with me here cause it goes deeper than this is.

God is God, Love. God revealed himself to Moses and covered Moses' eyes so that he only saw God's back but it is still a 'physical' to me
Jesus, God walking in the flesh. No one can deny that. A 'physical' to me.

So here I am. The Holy Spirit. Being sent from the Father and Son, descends like a dove. Is a Fire of Knowledge and Truth to the Apostles, Jesus said he would send 'another', and HE would ...... But it still isnt a 'physical' to me..

I am not denying the Trinity, and I understand that it may take some time to get it. But why cant I just get past this part? I dont want to be stumped here, stuck between My total conviction and not understanding why.

A 'fire' of truth and knowledge doensnt explain the physical aspect of the Holy Spirit to me. It doesnt represent a person, sorry. I really, REALLY want to understand this, so please dont beat me up.

There has got to be a better way to explain this so my teeny tiny mind grasps it.

So far in all that I have learned in catholicism, this is the hardest. I have heard that it takes faith, and that I understand. But there has got to be someone out there who can enlighten me.


Peace and Love

Edited May 3, 2004 by Quietfire

[Circle_Master]

First begin by referring to the Holy Spirit as a He. Too often we never remember that He has a personality and can grieve and have joy just like any other member of the Trinity.

[Quietfire]

I dont recall calling The Holy Spirit an 'it'.
Circle,
really. I want to understand. Can we stick to the topic?

[phatcatholic]

quietfire........hmmm.....i'm not sure how to respond. i'll have to ponder this one and get back to u. make sure u remind me if i forget!

[Quietfire]

ok, phatcat.

Is this the day I remind you?


PEACE

P.S. you can email or pm me if ya want.