Catholic Vs Catholic Debate And The Art Of Phorum Maintenance

[dUSt]

OK, so the "No Catholic vs Catholic debate" rule has been a long standing rule here at phatmass for quite some time. I've explained the reasons for this rule many many times, with the main reason being, the debates often cause scandal, and can easily be misinterpreted by non-Catholics, young Catholics, and lukewarm Catholics who may be struggling with their faith.

Basically, the debates often turn into the equivalent of "airing our dirty laundry", and I just didn't want phatmass to be a venue for that. I've never said these types of discussions shouldn't exist, but rather, I didn't want phatmass to be consumed by them.

So, with that said, [b]we still have a problem with Catholic vs Catholic debate occurring in the phorum[/b]. Just look. It's all over the place.

I've put a lot of thought into this, and I see one of two things happening:

[list=1]

[*]I instruct my mods to start enforcing the Catholic vs Catholic rule a lot more strictly, issuing warnings for violaters (on [b]both[/b] sides of the argument), with suspensions to follow
[*]I create a board specifically for Catholic vs Catholic debate. This board would have the following restrictions: Non-viewable by the public. Only viewable by Church Militant and above (so non-Catholics and new members would not even see it)
[/list]

If option number two is the consensus, [b]ALL[/b] phorum rules would still apply, [b]except[/b] the Catholic vs Catholic rule. Personal attacks, negative criticism, profanity, etc, etc... All of those rules would still be enforced. In other words, this would not be another "Back Alley" where bad threads are moved.

Anyway, at this point, I'd like some feedback and perspective. I want to eliminate Catholic vs Catholic debate from the public view one way or the other, because it has gotten way out of hand. I'm still struggling with the best approach. Either way, there will be some people who are unhappy.

Help pham!

[Cam42]

You already know my view, but in a vein of transparency, I'll contribute and give my .02.

I don't necessarily see Catholic v. Catholic as a bad thing. Sometimes it is necessary to teach and discuss and duke it out. I do see it as necessarily bad when authentic charity goes out the window (I've been on both sides, so I get it). I think that too often we forget that we cannot convey emotion or inflection through the computer, so people are quick to get defensive...myself included...

I think that having a place to hash out some of the more "controversial" issues is a good thing, because we can all learn from them, but I also think that having a more secure place is a good thing too, because it will eliminate some of the confusion with regard to the nuances of the Church that not everyone will get...specifically non-Catholics or those who are not as interested in the "deep stuff" and just come here for a good time, etc....

I also think that limiting the board to the "Militant" and above is a good idea, because it is they who often times have a more complete perspective, but like everyone else, I think that it is a matter of maturity....myself included...

Overall, I think that it is a good idea, because these issues need to be talked about...as we are trying to correct a hermeneutic of rupture, with a hermeneutic of continuity, Catholic v. Catholic debate and discussion is going to happen. It is inevitable...even a phatmass, so rather than ignore it or pretend that it doesn't apply, we should have a place to go to discuss it...it is important.

I vote A Phamily Affair....

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308938556' post='2258145']
I don't necessarily see Catholic v. Catholic as a bad thing. Sometimes it is necessary to teach and discuss and duke it out.
[/quote]
This. I vote #2.

[goldenchild17]

For years since I've been here, 2. is essentially what I have proposed we have. Whether it goes through or not and ultimately whether or not it works, dUSt, I appreciate that it is finally being considered. I think it's needed, as long as it's not abused (obviously a microscopically thin line).

[sixpence]

I vote for #2, but what will occur if a non-"Church-Militant"-labelled Catholic (such as myself) gets into a debate with another Catholic??

[MIKolbe]

My main concern is these debates may be more heated (which may or may not be a bad thing), and the heated feelings or possible 'grudges' (for lack of a better word) may play out in other, more public areas of the board.

But then I am somewhat of a ninny.

[Jaime]

I'd like to make #2

[dUSt]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1308940173' post='2258154']
I vote for #2, but what will occur if a non-"Church-Militant"-labelled Catholic (such as myself) gets into a debate with another Catholic??
[/quote]
Catholics are allowed to debate with other Catholics on phatmass. The "Cath vs Cath" rule is intended to apply to debates over matters within the church, ie- interpretation of church documents, liturgy, etc.

If you are a Catholic, then you should get a CM tag and reserve those types of discussions for the board intended. Flat out violations of the "Cath vs Cath" rule on any other board will still get you a warning. Discretion will be used, and some threads may just be moved, especially in cases where the "debate" gradually escalated.

[Winchester]

Catholic Death Match

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308940610' post='2258157']
I'd like to make #2
[/quote]
Fiber should help.

[Cam42]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308940610' post='2258157']
I'd like to make #2
[/quote]

TMI

love ya...

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308945289' post='2258192']
TMI

love ya...
[/quote]
I think you mean T.I.M. as in "Tevas In Mail" don't you?

[Cam42]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1308945504' post='2258194']
I think you mean T.I.M. as in "Tevas In Mail" don't you?
[/quote]

No, we're way beyond that...the mail lost them, I can't control Big Brother, even if he tries to control me....by hi-jacking jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)'s Tevas...

[vee]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1308943101' post='2258172']
Catholic Death Match


[/quote]

this

[she_who_is_not]

I'm voting for number 2. I came to Phatmass when I was considering becoming a Catholic, and while Phatmass played a huge role in my conversion, Catholic vs. Catholic debate can be confusing and off-putting for someone seeking orthodox information. Especially when that someone is going through RCIA at a somewhat unorthodox parish.

However, I do believe that having a space for such debate is good. Good debate requires critical thought. As Catholics we should think and speak about our faith in a way that encourages a deepening and maturation of belief. Clearly articulating and defending one's beliefs is a great to way to accomplish that. Phatmass is also one of the few places where some people can come and have a purely Catholic debate. Most of my friends are evangelical Protestants and I love them, but I spend a lot of time either defending Catholicism or trying to keep the dirty laundry in a basket. Even though I don't participate in debate threads or post a lot, I like knowing that I can usually come here and find threads that may address some of the conflicts I experience as a Catholic, both internal conflicts and those with my brothers and sisters.

I also just want to reiterate that the Phatmass community played a major role in my conversion and I think it is important that we maintain an atmosphere that remains non-Catholic, convert, revert friendly.

[Catholictothecore]

I think the important thing with Catholic v Catholic is to make certain there is a difference between stating what we disagree with in certain parishes and stating complaints against Church-as-a-Whole policy. In other words, battling liturgical abuse is one thing. Saying that gay people should have "marriage" is another.

[dUSt]

[quote name='she_who_is_not' timestamp='1308949000' post='2258242']
I'm voting for number 2. I came to Phatmass when I was considering becoming a Catholic, and while Phatmass played a huge role in my conversion, Catholic vs. Catholic debate can be confusing and off-putting for someone seeking orthodox information. Especially when that someone is going through RCIA at a somewhat unorthodox parish.

However, I do believe that having a space for such debate is good. Good debate requires critical thought. As Catholics we should think and speak about our faith in a way that encourages a deepening and maturation of belief. Clearly articulating and defending one's beliefs is a great to way to accomplish that. Phatmass is also one of the few places where some people can come and have a purely Catholic debate. Most of my friends are evangelical Protestants and I love them, but I spend a lot of time either defending Catholicism or trying to keep the dirty laundry in a basket. Even though I don't participate in debate threads or post a lot, I like knowing that I can usually come here and find threads that may address some of the conflicts I experience as a Catholic, both internal conflicts and those with my brothers and sisters.

I also just want to reiterate that the Phatmass community played a major role in my conversion and I think it is important that we maintain an atmosphere that remains non-Catholic, convert, revert friendly.
[/quote]

[CatherineM]

I don't like the Cath on Cath debate because I never see it going anywhere. I hate getting involved in it. It causes hard feelings, and I think it gives enemies of the Church ammunition.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1308940356' post='2258155']
My main concern is these debates may be more heated (which may or may not be a bad thing), and the heated feelings or possible 'grudges' (for lack of a better word) may play out in other, more public areas of the board.
[/quote]
Because no cliquey behaviour ever occurs on this website already.

[Cam42]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1308951936' post='2258270']
I don't like the Cath on Cath debate because I never see it going anywhere. I hate getting involved in it. It causes hard feelings, and I think it gives enemies of the Church ammunition.
[/quote]

The main reason that it causes hard feelings is because inevitably, one of the party's involved commits a fallacy and applies a universal to a particular. That can't be done. For example, if I am talking about Sacred Music as a whole and all of a sudden a responsory post to me shifts from the Church as a whole to "this is how I do it in my parish and dam.n you for telling me I'm wrong...." The point has been lost. Rarely will I speak to the particular and if I do, I clarify first, normally....but that doesn't change the feelings....[b]THAT[/b] above all else is what the MODs should be looking for and stopping...because that is what causes the problem...not the talk in the universal, normally...

Catholic v. Catholic debate is healthy if done right. It can really be a good teaching tool for both sides, but both sides have to stay universal about it....if a particular is brought up, then the one who brings it up cannot get angry or upset or offended if the application doesn't fit...because it is at that point that the particular becomes a teaching moment to take back to the parish and influence TPTB in order to affect a change toward the hermeneutic of continuity.

That is the bottom line about Catholic v. Catholic...as I see it.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308952552' post='2258281']
The main reason that it causes hard feelings is because inevitably, one of the party's involved commits a fallacy and applies a universal to a particular. That can't be done. For example, if I am talking about Sacred Music as a whole and all of a sudden a responsory post to me shifts from the Church as a whole to "this is how I do it in my parish and dam.n you for telling me I'm wrong...." The point has been lost. Rarely will I speak to the particular and if I do, I clarify first, normally....but that doesn't change the feelings....[b]THAT[/b] above all else is what the MODs should be looking for and stopping...because that is what causes the problem...not the talk in the universal, normally...

Catholic v. Catholic debate is healthy if done right. It can really be a good teaching tool for both sides, but both sides have to stay universal about it....if a particular is brought up, then the one who brings it up cannot get angry or upset or offended if the application doesn't fit...because it is at that point that the particular becomes a teaching moment to take back to the parish and influence TPTB in order to affect a change toward the hermeneutic of continuity.

That is the bottom line about Catholic v. Catholic...as I see it.
[/quote]
And this is the problem I see with Catholic v. Catholic debate. If I don't see things the way you do, I am wrong, and therefore not entitled to my opinion. If I don't like chant, or Latin liturgy, or kneeling to receive communion, then I have committed a fallacy. I'm going to dinner with my husband now, and I will certainly be eating babies. That is what you think I do, right?