New York Legalises Same-Sex Marriage

[katholikkid]

Ron Paul, when asked about same sex marriage vs. civil unions, replied "Let them call it whatever they want."
The reality is homosexual couples exist and they want benefits for their contributions to society. Not a terribly far fetched request. Perhaps when it comes to such social matters where the outcome is more or less an official recognition of something rather than a harmful action i.e. abortion, war etc. the Church should just concentrate on marriage within its own parameters. I understand the worries that people have about having to perform services or cater to people who are in such a union but I think that is an unnecessary fear. If the day should come that a government forces a person or organization to do something against his conscience there are bigger things to worry over. From what I gather the Marriage Equality Bill was not an if but when situation anyway. The matter at hand is the catholic politicians who voted for it. Their argument is that they are catholic and although they may not believe in same sex marriage that they are not there for themselves but their constituents who are not all catholic or even christian for that matter. I like to look at that in reverse, the state I am from has many gay men and lesbians in the government but there does not seem to be a huge push for anything phenomenal when it comes to homosexuality and perhaps those politicians use the same thought process that it is not about them or their beliefs but the people they represent. The next question is where they elected simply because they were catholic? If the answer is yes then they may have some 'splainin' to do. I don't think this is as huge as a shake up as it is being touted. Many European countries have civil unions and a few have same sex marriage. I sometimes look at the Anglicans for a model. When I was in England I visited an Anglican Church for Evensong and there were it seemed a homosexual couple but there was reverence in the service and it was very traditional. So for a church that is so 'progressive' it seemed to posses many traditional elements and in fact from my experience in general it could be described as an institution that is liturgically traditional and theologically progressive. Now getting back to good old Roma. I doubt this will be as big an issue since it will most likely become standard in many states and children born now will never have existed without the idea of same sex marriage existing in some capacity. Thus the church must amp up its doctrines and really scrutinize and make sure people understand what true marriage is. Thankfully our previous pope left us some great material for our era 'Theology of the Body' and we must start from there. Also the Church should take a more open 'we don't mind discussing this' stance on the matter. I feel it is only ever discussed when the politicians are discussing it which is not good. The Church is going to do great as it always has. We have people with wisdom being guided by the Holy Ghost so we can't go wrong. In some ways it is probably good that this is becoming such a discussed topic. Perhaps the lay faithful in the Church are moving more towards a place where dialogue with faithful homosexual Catholics can take place and we can know better the struggles of our brothers and sisters in an open communal way. Keep strong in the faith.

Edited June 28, 2011 by katholikkid

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1309221385' post='2259270']
I understand the worries that people have about having to perform services or cater to people who are in such a union but I think that is [b]an unnecessary fear.[/b] If the day should come that a government forces a person or organization to do something against his conscience there are bigger things to worry over.
[/quote]

You are infinitely more optimistic about this country than I am.

Pretty sure we're already seeing the beginning of the government forcing persons or an organization to do things against their conscience.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1309221625' post='2259272']
Pretty sure we're already seeing the beginning of the government forcing persons or an organization to do things against their conscience.
[/quote]
Oh I think you're long past that. It's getting more blatant now.

[Ice_nine]

The world is messed up. What's another nail in the coffin?

I know I should be all about rebuilding society and bringing justice to the world, but I can't help this overwhelming pessimism that as a society we are on our last leg. If you cut a leaf off of a tree it will stay green for a little while, maybe even turn a pretty red or orange if we're in the Fall, but it can't survive and soon it will turn brittle and lifeless. In the same way we've been able to divorce our ethos from the principles that gave them life in the first place, all these ideas of freedom and a just society, and keep them on life support for a bit. Every civilization has to come to an end right? But hey cheer up kid the wild, wild West gave it a good run.

I don't think gay marriage is signaling the end of civilization as we know it. I wouldn't give it that much credit. It's just another gasp or air before the pathetic animal quits out for good.

With this much pessimism it's hard to be surprised at stuff like this!

Edited June 28, 2011 by Ice_nine

[Lil Red]

What is a good, short, snippet of a rebuttal against same-sex marriage? Most people don't want a two hour long spiel, but a short snippet of why you are against same-sex marriage.

[katholikkid]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1309223214' post='2259286']
What is a good, short, snippet of a rebuttal against same-sex marriage? Most people don't want a two hour long spiel, but a short snippet of why you are against same-sex marriage.
[/quote]

Against it because it is never an ideal situation when you equate two things that are not equitable. Even worse treat them interchangeably. In my mind gay marriage cannot exist; it is not marriage just because a state says so hence my ron paul quote. I am ok with the idea of civil unions for hetero and homosexual couples who don't want the sacrament. France has such a system you can choose church marriage or state union. Separation between church and state is a good thing. Even if the USA passed a federal law on same sex marriage it should not shatter the theology of marriage for any catholic. Its basically the state using the name of a sacrament just as if they decided to call inaugurations ordinations; same name not at all the same matter.

Edited June 28, 2011 by katholikkid

[Lil Red]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1309223963' post='2259303']
Against it because it is never an ideal situation when you equate two things that are not equitable. Even worse treat them interchangeably. In my mind gay marriage cannot exist it is not marriage just because a state says so hence my ron paul quote. I am ok with the idea of civil unions for hetero and homosexual couples who don't want the sacrament. France has such a system you can choose church marriage or state union. Separation between church and state is a good thing. Even if the USA passed a federal law on same sex marriage it should not shatter the theology of marriage for any catholic. Its basically the state using the name of a sacrament just as if they decided to call inaugurations ordinations; same name not at all the same matter.
[/quote]
umm, sorry, i don't know if there is a language difference or something, but i cannot understand what you are talking about?

anyone else have something helpful to say?

[katholikkid]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1309224076' post='2259308']
umm, sorry, i don't know if there is a language difference or something, but i cannot understand what you are talking about?

anyone else have something helpful to say?
[/quote]


My short snippet for being against gay marriage is that it attempts to equate the two forms of marriage and they are not at all equitable or interchangeable. The rest of it I say why I feel civil unions are better than terming same sex unions as 'marriage'. I am saying in the end Catholics shouldn't worry because it doesn't matter what the government calls it, it is not truly marriage. Like Protestants calling their communal sharing of blessed bread "Eucharist". They are free to call it that but just because there is a majority feeling that it is the true Eucharist doesn't make it so. That is why I hate when people say 'marriage is under attack' ok maybe in a social-government sense but not in reality.

Edited June 28, 2011 by katholikkid

[jmjtina]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1309223214' post='2259286']
What is a good, short, snippet of a rebuttal against same-sex marriage? Most people don't want a two hour long spiel, but a short snippet of why you are against same-sex marriage.
[/quote]

I find it hard to get this in a nice 2 minute spill too. But I hope these help. I've actually been trying to come up with something relatively short and concise on it too. Other than reading as much as I can on it, the Church's stance, research, etc, and praying for inspiration from the Holy Spirit when discussing with it, I find the best way is just to read all you can, so your ready for anything.

[media]http://youtu.be/djPZ9q-F13E[/media]

[media]http://youtu.be/nA093eRcC10[/media]

[jmjtina]

And we need to be clear, the persecution has already started.

[url="http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/breaking-sports-anchor-fired-over-true-marriage-tweet-now-taking-rogers-to"]Breaking: Sports anchor fired over true marriage tweet taking Rogers to human rights tribunal[/url]

Also:

[url="http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=44234"]Football Star David Tyree, Gay Marriage, and Anarchy: A Super Bowl player comes under fire for his beliefs.[/url]

[Ice_nine]

I don't like when people use the "p" word lightly. If you speak out against gay marriage you may be branded with unfair and narrow pejoratives, but that doesn't quite equate to persecution.

Red, condensing things that are nuanced and often emotionally-charged into two minutes . . . good luck. People want short, simple categories to fit into. If you can get past a person thinking you're bigoted, dumb, and/or scared after you declare you ain't down with teh gay marriage I will be super impressed.

[Jesus_lol]

I kind of find the concept of christians being persecuted in north america to be a little laughable. sure a priest or two is getting in trouble, but people and other groups are getting unfairly treated all the time, it is kind of the way of things, likeable or not.

heaven forbid a christian come under a bit of fire for the beliefs they hold. jesus said something on the topic of that you will always come under fire for being a christian.



when fully half of the country is on your side, its hard to keep playing the persecuted bit.


Lil Red, probably the best thing you could do would be to distance yourself from the vast majority of american christians that speak out against homosexuality. I know the catholic position is to hate the sin and not the sinner, and that there are some theological reasons behind your beliefs, but most of the people you see preaching against the evils of gaydom, are just mouthbreathing bigots. that right there is your problem.
someone told these people that God said its ok to hate gay people and they are running with it. It aint socially acceptable to laugh in bars about how ____ black people are, or to point fingers and laugh at them, so they have a new target. Most of those guys have boiled it down to a "they are different and we dont like that" approach, and it would be best to assert that that point of view is not only not true of every christian against gay marriage, but also that the catholic church actually teaches a measure of kindness towards those with SSA.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1309218023' post='2259257']
Yeah, flaws in logic are like soooo annoying. I'm personally not a fan of the ad hominem, relativist, poisoning the well, questionable cause, or red herring fallacies.
[/quote]


im really not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. if so, cool, if not at least say it straight, im not gonn cry bout it.

[jmjtina]

really?

is persecution only blood and beheadings?

ever heard of white marytrdom?

Seriously, people are losing jobs, families, etc, over standing for traditional marriage and Church teachings. I've seen people people persecuted for their faith. I've been persecuted for my faith. I don't think I need to prove it to you that persecution is happening today, and if you haven't seen it, well, is ignorance bliss?

Do you think I take this lightly? Obviously, there will always be those who take it too lightly.

Edited June 28, 2011 by jmjtina

[TeresaBenedicta]

There may be a religious exemption clause, but there's going to be trouble:

[quote]Religious exemption language that was part of a successful “gay marriage” bill in New York addresses a handful of religious liberty concerns but ignores a large number of other religious conflicts, says an attorney familiar with the issue.

The religious exemption language was critical to getting a handful of Republican senators — four total — to support the bill, allowing it to pass, 33-29.

The issue of religious liberty has been at the forefront of conservative concerns about “gay marriage.” After it was legalized in Massachusetts in 2004, Catholic Charities chose to get out of adoptions instead of being forced to place children in same-sex homes. While the language might prevent that from happening in New York, Alliance Defense Fund attorney Austin R. Nimocks says, it would not protect a husband-and-wife photography team from state action if they declined to take pictures at a same-sex “wedding.” It also would do nothing to prevent the teaching of “gay marriage” in New York schools. Alliance Defense Fund is a legal organization that fights for religious liberty.

Following is a partial transcript of an interview with Nimocks:

BAPTIST PRESS: Give me an example of what the bill supposedly would cover in its religious exemptions.

AUSTIN R NIMOCKS: A church or religious organization that, for example, owns property, would not be required to have their property used or appropriated for purposes inconsistent with their theological beliefs or views about marriage.

BP: Would the exemption protect Catholic Charities and prevent the problem that they had in Massachusetts?

NIMOCKS: It’s hard to say because you don’t know how all this is going to be interpreted. But I would say that Catholic Charities would likely be covered [by the exemption] because of the religious nature of Catholic Charities. But if you have a private adoption agency that is not overtly religious but believes they want to adopt kids out only to moms and dads — they’re not covered.

BP: You’re saying that the term “religious” is up to a judge’s interpretation.

NIMOCKS: Absolutely. Where a conflict arises, it will be played out in court or some tribunal. This language does not cover everything it needs to cover and everybody that needs to be covered. In terms of what it purports to cover, it remains to be seen whether it will be interpreted in the way that many legislators who enacted it are promising it will be. There are significant holes in this religious liberty language.
[/quote]

[url="http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=35647"]Read more here.[/url]

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309249449' post='2259587']
im really not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. if so, cool, if not at least say it straight, im not gonn cry bout it.
[/quote]

While trying to attack what you erroneously claim is a flaw in logic you are using a ton of them yourself. In other words, I am calling out your hypocrisy.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309249012' post='2259584']
I kind of find the concept of christians being persecuted in north america to be a little laughable. sure a priest or two is getting in trouble, but people and other groups are getting unfairly treated all the time, it is kind of the way of things, likeable or not.
[/quote]

If you can cease to try to argue out of an appeal to emotion, you will likely stand a better chance of making a point that will stick.

http://catholicleague.com/annualreport.php

[kujo]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309043012' post='2258748']
Im cool with whats going on in New York.
[/quote]

Me too (which is why I no longer "rep the Church")

[quote name='StMichael' timestamp='1309119426' post='2258902']
His current squeeze's brother is gay.
[/quote]

Yeah, because it's easy to villainize a whole group of people for something you see as "wrong" and "evil" and "disgusting," but when you actually know and love someone who is a homosexual, it tends to change your tune.

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1309216043' post='2259246']
Well, besides destroying the definition of marriage, which will lead to a more lackadaisical view of marriage (see birth control leading to more lackadaisical view of parenting) , which will lead to higher divorce rates, single parent homes, and ultimately the destruction of society as we know it... you know, besides all that minor stuff... This could lead to it being against the law to teach that homosexual marriage is wrong, causing the church to commit a crime for teaching a universal truth that existed since the beginning of time as we know it, making all our priests and CCD teachers criminals.
[/quote]

Seems like there's a persistent lack of understanding around Phatmass regarding causation and correlation. Apparently it starts at the top.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309274678' post='2259682']
Yeah, because it's easy to villainize a whole group of people for something you see as "wrong" and "evil" and "disgusting," but when you actually know and love someone who is a homosexual, it tends to change your tune.
[/quote]


All sin is wrong, evil and disgusting...


... and you don't stop loving a person just because you disagree on their choice to live in sin... in fact, you love them more by disagreeing with their decisions that seperate them from God's grace...

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309274678' post='2259682']
Yeah, because it's easy to villainize a whole group of people for something you see as "wrong" and "evil" and "disgusting," but when you actually know and love someone who is a homosexual, it tends to change your tune.
[/quote]

Not if you believe in Jesus Christ. I have more than a few close friends who have same sex attractions. One of them recently went through a wedding ceremony in MA with her partner. I love all of them dearly, but openly reject their sin. They know where I stand too. It seems that the people here at phatmass with the martyrdom complex are actually pro-gay agenda members who are totally blowing the Catholic position out of proportion.

And I am sorry you have lost your faith. Your heart will never be at peace until you surrender yourself to Jesus and His Church. We can either be slaves of sin or live in the freedom of God.