Predestination

[Justified Saint]

So what is everyone's opinion of predestination?

[the lumberjack]

thats a VERY broad question...

give me your definition of predestination...

here's my outlook on it.

God knows all....right?

by all, I mean that...EVERYTHING.

He is the man in the anouncing booth that can see all the players and the directions they could possibly take, except He knows which way they will go before they do...right? I mean God knows everything...EVERYTHING. if you say no, then you make God a liar. while we are the lowly ant on the football field of eternity, not knowing where the beginning or end are, or where it ends or begins...

We DO have free will, and God offers the same saving grace to EVERYONE...Christ died that ALL would be saved...right? but, by the same token, God ALSO knows who will reject Him.

God gives us all the opportunity to accept Him or reject Him...we are all ministered to in our lives...in one way or another.

this does not mean that God is choosing some for salvation and some for damnation...it means that He knows who will and who won't serve Him.

every choice you make, God knew you were going to make it, before you did. God knew you would be here, reading this post whenever you read it. it don't mean that He is MAKING it happen, it just means that He knew.

I think thats about it.

God bless.

[Justified Saint]

Right, God knows everything - Catholics aren't open theists or anything.

I don't claim to be that knowledgeable on this issue either but I still haven't made up my mind yet on predestination, that is if God does give everyone the same opportunity to be saved or not.

Hopefully more to come.

[Mary's Knight, La]

God knows everything perfectly and has perfect infinite love if we can agree on that then the rest falls into place. The power of God is the strength of His love, He loved us so much that He created us in His love. Now if God could force certain people to go to Heaven that wouldn't be really loving them because they wouldnt enjoy it as much as if it had been their choice. if God could disallow people to go to heaven as in bar them from it. then His love would fail again because no matter how much they would want to be with Him they couldnt.

there's a song where the spirit of the Lord is there is freedom because God in His infinite love will not force us into anything we don't want.

one example i heard is perfect there was a plateau on which children wanted to play but they parents were worried about them falling off so they built a railing all the way around the edge so the childen couldn't fall off they couldn't get to the edge thus everyone was happy, the children could have a blast and wouldnt fall off which made the parents happy to watch their kids have fun the rail is God's law and we have a choice whether or not to slip past the rail but we're guaranteed we'll fall off the mountain if we do.

[Justified Saint]

Good comments.

I am studying Thomism right now and trying to learn how the Church reconciles the views of Thomists with the wider and more common Catholic understanding of Molinism and free will. Thus, I am not completely decided on where I would stand on this position but that would seem desired since the Church hasn't defined the solution either!

[the lumberjack]

and this is what I'm talking about...not thinking for yourself, because the church hasn't told you what to think.

but hey, its your religion....its your purogative...or rather, the Catholic Church's purogative.

God bless.

[Livin_the_MASS]

JS don't even reply to him, charity lets just pray for him!

[Justified Saint]

On the contrary I would rather have the constant witness of the TRUTH than man's novelties. We gave sola Scriptura a shot 500 years ago and it didn't answer the problem just created problems.

It is odd how Protestants are so eager to assert man's freedom and independency over God's divine truth and Church.

Maybe it is just a preference...

[Justified Saint]

Sorry Jason, you should have posted sooner brother.

God willing, I will try harder next time.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Apr 26 2004, 07:42 PM'] On the contrary I would rather have the constant witness of the TRUTH than man's novelties. We gave sola Scriptura a shot 500 years ago and it didn't answer the problem just created problems.

It is odd how Protestants are so eager to assert man's freedom and independency over God's divine truth and Church.

Maybe it is just a preference... [/quote]
where does the Catholic Church keep the host?

in a box right?

you say that it IS Christ, yet you keep him in a box.

God in a box...hmmm...sounds pretty minimizing of God's power to me.

but anyways, back to predestination.

[Livin_the_MASS]

Charity! Pray

[Justified Saint]

Thank you.

Anyways, most Catholics would probably agree with your first post Lumberjack, if you can imagine that!

Edited April 27, 2004 by Justified Saint

[the lumberjack]

are we talking, "I agree because all those things hold true about God" ?

or

"I agree till the Catholic Church puts out its official doctrine, which if different will then be my absolute truth" ?

I'm seriously wondering...no jokes, no sarcasm.

[Justified Saint]

There is no distinction.

The Catholic Church is the Church that Christ founded therefore what she says holds true to God.

[the lumberjack]

thats the thing, if the Catholic Church were to come up with something different to what you just said that most catholics would agree with, they would no longer agree with me.

*sigh*

God bless.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 26 2004, 11:17 PM'] thats the thing, if the Catholic Church were to come up with something different to what you just said that most catholics would agree with, they would no longer agree with me.

*sigh*

God bless. [/quote]

[Justified Saint]

But the fact is that the Church allows for different understandings (not necessarily contradictory) on this issue - why? Because whether or not you believe in unconditional election, election/reprobation before or after demerits/merits, limited atonement and whatever else - it doesn't have to be fully understood in order to know and celebrate the Gospel of Christ - Protestants on the other hand will find just about ANYTHING to bicker over, they have manged to create issues and conflicts amongst themselves with this topic and other ones (e.g. eschatology) and have made them into dividing issues. This is not a dividing topic for Catholics where the Protestant has to beat a confession out of the Bible to fit their already formulated doctrines on these issues.

[Hananiah]

I definitely lean towards unconditional election. I don't see how the idea that God comes to conclusions based on study and observation of His middle knowledge is compatible with the fact that He is omnicsient and therefore incapable of learning.

Edited April 27, 2004 by Hananiah

[the lumberjack]

could you say that again...but in normal people's english?

really, I don't get any of what you just posted...

and please clarify what you mean about "unconditional election"

God bless

[Hananiah]

Unconditional election: God chose which people He would save completely out of grace, not conditioning His decision on His foreknowledge of how they would behave.

Conditional election: God chose whom He would save based on His foreknowledge of how they would behave.

Middle knowledge: in Molinism (one of the Catholic theologies of predestination) God has what's called middle knowledge, which is a massive body of knowledge regarding how each human being will respond to God placed in any given situation and given X amount of grace. When He chose His elect, God looked at this middle knowledge and said, "well So and so will only respond to Our grace if We give him a ton of it and place him in an extraordinarily observant and holy Catholic family. If We place him in a regular situation he will choose sin. We're not going to save him. Ah, but We could place so and so #2 in a pagan society and all but starve him of grace and he would still seek Us out and find Us. We like this one, so We will save him."

In Thomism (other Catholic theology of predestination) there's no study of the middle knowledge. God just chose.

Edited April 27, 2004 by Hananiah