So Why Aren't You Catholic Yet?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311319546' post='2273662']
It seems like a lottery really. With no proof or evidence what so ever for any religion, I am really confused as to how a person picks one over the other.
I would say in most cases it is based on family or society influence. But of course there are always exceptions.

I don't think the Hare Krishna's do themselves any favours jumping up and down on street corners though.
[/quote]

Maybe. I know more than a few converts whose family, friends, and co-workers did not look kindly on their conversion. I lost nearly all of my friends, only my former best friend still talks to me, and only on rare occasion. I think the same could be said about atheism though - that there are some who become atheist for the acceptance of a particular group of people or due to social influence. I think it is too simplistic to write it off as just the need for acceptance or such influences though. Just as you find atheism the most reasonable solution to the evidence you have been presented, so too I find in [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html"]Catholicism[/url].

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1311310059' post='2273621']
I feel very complimented that you consider me one of the phamily. You (or anyone else on Phatmass) is free to pray for my conversion if you want to, and I will also feel very complimented that you want me to join the tribe.
[/quote]
lol how could you NOT be phamily????

[stevil]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1311343459' post='2273759']
Maybe. I know more than a few converts whose family, friends, and co-workers did not look kindly on their conversion. I lost nearly all of my friends, only my former best friend still talks to me, and only on rare occasion. I think the same could be said about atheism though - that there are some who become atheist for the acceptance of a particular group of people or due to social influence. I think it is too simplistic to write it off as just the need for acceptance or such influences though. Just as you find atheism the most reasonable solution to the evidence you have been presented, so too I find in [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html"]Catholicism[/url].
[/quote]
The thing about Atheism though is that there really isn't an -ism. It is simply a personal lack of belief I have in any of the god theories which are abound.
I don't frequent any organisation (church) in order to learn what is right or wrong, or to learn how I should behave or treat others. I don't give up my own personal values and adhere to someone else's with a thinking of "they know better than me, so although I don't understand it, I'll just go with what they say". I take personal responsibility for my own actions and thoughts, I could never bestow that responsibility onto a "higher" authority, e.g. Church.

I feel someone taking on a religion, and accepting a church, is deciding in someways to take on all that the church teaches and to learn to believe that their church is right and everyone else is wrong. But with the multitude of religions and churchs, how does one decide which one of them is more correct than the others?

[Adrestia]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311365464' post='2273954']
The thing about Atheism though is that there really isn't an -ism. It is simply a personal lack of belief I have in any of the god theories which are abound.
I don't frequent any organisation (church) in order to learn what is right or wrong, or to learn how I should behave or treat others. I don't give up my own personal values and adhere to someone else's with a thinking of "they know better than me, so although I don't understand it, I'll just go with what they say". I take personal responsibility for my own actions and thoughts, I could never bestow that responsibility onto a "higher" authority, e.g. Church.[/quote]

Two things:

1) Deciding not to believe in any god theory is also a decision. There's no default position.
2) Choosing to affiliate with a religion does not remove personal responsibility for ones actions and thoughts.

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311365464' post='2273954']I feel someone taking on a religion, and accepting a church, is deciding in someways to take on all that the church teaches and to learn to believe that their church is right and everyone else is wrong. But with the multitude of religions and churchs, how does one decide which one of them is more correct than the others?
[/quote]

My decision came down to whether I believed the bible was accurate or a collection of fairy tales. As far as Catholicism goes, I think it's the most true to the original teachings of the Christ.

[stevil]

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1311366818' post='2273962']
Two things:

1) Deciding not to believe in any god theory is also a decision. There's no default position.
2) Choosing to affiliate with a religion does not remove personal responsibility for ones actions and thoughts.
[/quote]
1. I was born without a belief in god, so was my neighbor's dog. My car also laks a belief in god. It is the default position for me.
2. I have seen Catholics getting attacked by other Catholics on this forum when they disagree with Church teachings.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311367689' post='2273971']2. I have seen Catholics getting attacked by other Catholics on this forum when they disagree with Church teachings.[/quote]Catholics attack and reject their own frequently and often, with little or no reason. There is more social support and and acceptance among atheists, also more freedom.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311367689' post='2273971']
1. I was born without a belief in god, so was my neighbor's dog. My car also laks a belief in god. It is the default position for me.
2. I have seen Catholics getting attacked by other Catholics on this forum when they disagree with Church teachings.
[/quote]

1. How do you define the term "default position" in this context? Your comment doesn't make sense to me, which probably means that I didn't express myself properly above.
2. I'm not sure what that has to do with personal responsibility.

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1311367880' post='2273973']
Catholics attack and reject their own frequently and often, with little or no reason. There is more social support and and acceptance among atheists, also more freedom.
[/quote]

Humans attack and reject their own frequently and often, with little or no reason. Catholics do not have a copyright on this.

That fact that a person feels more social support, acceptance, and freedom as an atheist doesn't mean that someone else will feel the same way. Also, it's possible that someone else may not want that kind of social support, acceptance, and freedom. Some people find following church teachings to be challenging and isolating - but prefer it to other alternatives. They still have freedom, they choose to follow church teachings.

[Groo the Wanderer]

Well....considering that Jesus created ONE Church and that ONE Church still exists as He promised and that everyone who is validly baptized is a member of the mystical Body of Christ which is that ONE Church.....


All validly baptized Christians are in fact Catholic, whether they acknowledge this fact or not.


I love our Separated Brethren, for they ARE indeed our brethren.

[stevil]

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1311369422' post='2273979']
1. How do you define the term "default position" in this context? Your comment doesn't make sense to me, which probably means that I didn't express myself properly above.

2. I'm not sure what that has to do with personal responsibility.
[/quote]
1. I think this is pretty obvious. It comes down to where the burdon of proof is, in a situation where there isn't proof one way or another.
Would I attend church, get babtised, avoid contraceptives, pray and the like if I understood that there was no evidence of god? If I thought that belief in god were the default position then i would do these things until someone could prove that there was no god.
However for me the default position is that there is no god. I am not going to teach my stance or persuade others to give up their religion, because I have no proof of my stance. But, for me to attend Church and listen to them tell me what is right and wrong, I would have to be shown proof that there is a god and that this god is somehing that I would want to align with and that these teachings are aligned with this god's will.
Currently I do not feel Christianity has any more credance than Islam, Hindu, Greek, Norse, Maori, Bhudism, Scientology, Masonary etc.

2. The personal responsibility of working out what is right or wrong. I am happy to listen to and discuss these things with other people with different backgrounds, different world views. I am even willing to change my mind on these things given a well reasoned and thoughtfull argument. But religious people only take this responsibility in so far as making an effort to understand or simply agree to the viewpoint of their church. In this way they have deligated this responsibility onto their church rather than to take personal responsibility.
You could say that they have excercised their personal responsibility by deligating to their church but ultimately it means they have deligated that responsibility

[Adrestia]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311372246' post='2274003']
1. I think this is pretty obvious. It comes down to where the burdon of proof is, in a situation where there isn't proof one way or another.
Would I attend church, get babtised, avoid contraceptives, pray and the like if I understood that there was no evidence of god? If I thought that belief in god were the default position then i would do these things until someone could prove that there was no god.
However for me the default position is that there is no god. I am not going to teach my stance or persuade others to give up their religion, because I have no proof of my stance. But, for me to attend Church and listen to them tell me what is right and wrong, I would have to be shown proof that there is a god and that this god is somehing that I would want to align with and that these teachings are aligned with this god's will.
Currently I do not feel Christianity has any more credance than Islam, Hindu, Greek, Norse, Maori, Bhudism, Scientology, Masonary etc.
[/quote]

Ah. Okay. When I said that there is no default position, I meant that there is no proof one way or the other, so we must choose. What you see as your default position I see as a choice that you have made. (I still don't know why you compared yourself to a dog and a car.)

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311372246' post='2274003']
2. The personal responsibility of working out what is right or wrong. I am happy to listen to and discuss these things with other people with different backgrounds, different world views. I am even willing to change my mind on these things given a well reasoned and thoughtfull argument. But religious people only take this responsibility in so far as making an effort to understand or simply agree to the viewpoint of their church. In this way they have deligated this responsibility onto their church rather than to take personal responsibility.
You could say that they have excercised their personal responsibility by deligating to their church but ultimately it means they have deligated that responsibility
[/quote]

Are you suggesting that most atheists are as thoughtful and responsible as you are? Or that most religious people are rigid and, therefore, irresponsible?


The Catholic church teaches its followers to follow the example of Christ in the scriptures. He was a rebel for his time, associating with those that were considered outcasts, dirty, even cursed. Of course there are examples of Catholic people failing to meet that standard, but I don't blame the religion for that. If I were to judge the church based solely on the people sitting next to me in the pews, I would have left a very long time ago. If others were to judge the church based on me... well... depending on what day it was... let's just say that I'm glad they don't. Again, this isn't a Catholic or religious phenomenon. It's human nature. The only people who don't fail are those who never try something difficult.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311365464' post='2273954']
The thing about Atheism though is that there really isn't an -ism. It is simply a personal lack of belief I have in any of the god theories which are abound.

[/quote]

I don't know, it seems to me agnosticism would encompass the refusal to make a decision regarding God, where atheism is the decision that there is no God. The Kantian premise that accepts the "possibility that there may be a god" seems to be the best 'default' position for someone that has chosen not to believe in the Christian God. To reject even that seems unreasonable. As I mentioned, I believe that there is enough evidence from philosophy/natural reason (as the Church purports) to accept the existence of God. It is not a conclusion that can be reached on an Internet forum in the matter of a few days, just as I expect you would not be able to convert me to atheism in the course of a few posts on a message board. I believe such a scholarly pursuit is worth taking, even if it only leads you back to the position that there is a "possibility that there may be a god". I believe for the truly detached reasonable man, unconcerned with what the outcome will be will find himself convinced that not only is there a possibility that there may be a God, but that it the most reasonable position is that there truly is one. From there, historical evidence leads me to believe Jesus Christ is God and that the Christian story is the one true revelation of God to man.

I think any good discussion of this topic though would need to start with Aristotle (not any contemporary apologist).

[dairygirl4u2c]

extra ecclisium nulla sullus im sure i got that wrong
limbo

and there's some others per potential 'contradiction'

and the lack of concrete enough exercise of papal authority in the earliest church, that even an orthodox could believe legit in no pope

im sure there's other reasons

[faithcecelia]

As a convert, the reason I tried literally every other church in a 7mile ish radius first was because Catholics all have 3 heads and sharp claws growing out of the hairy toes, and i don't like hairy toes I don't really know why I was suprised it was where I ended up, mind, as it fitted absolutely to my prayer style etc. I was completely ostracised by my former denomination to the point that there are some who even now (11yrs later) will cross the road rather than acknowledge me in the streets, and thats painful.


That said, its also painful; when Catholics are rude and insulting too, something I have experiences for the first time this past 18mths and ongoing. Vulnerable wreck that I was back then I thought the church would be one place I would be accepted but experience in and out of the parish has shown me that people seem far more likely to criticise and hurt first befire possibly talking and understanding later.

[stevil]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1311383960' post='2274110']
I don't know, it seems to me agnosticism would encompass the refusal to make a decision regarding God, where atheism is the decision that there is no God. [/quote]

There is much confusion in the world with regards to the definition of Atheist and Agnostic.
These terms are quite different. Agnostic has no bearing on whether a person believes in god or not. A theist could also be agnostic, and an Atheist could be Agnostic.

Most Atheists are weak Atheists, not Strong Atheists. Strong Atheists have a belief that there is no god, weak Atheists have a lack of belief in god but couldn't say categorically that god doesn't exist.

If you are interested then here is a good thread that explains it quite well [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=113863"]What is an Agnostic Atheist.[/url]

[Adrestia]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311390780' post='2274152']
There is much confusion in the world with regards to the definition of Atheist and Agnostic.
These terms are quite different. Agnostic has no bearing on whether a person believes in god or not. A theist could also be agnostic, and an Atheist could be Agnostic.
[/quote]
There are also religious atheists. Jainism, a very old, not well known Indian (not Native American) religion believes that there is no deity, but has a very strict moral code that includes reward & punishment based on adherence to the code. One of my old college roommates and closest friends is Jain. In all honesty, outside of their dietary restrictions, our worship & sacraments, the Jain moral code - how to treat people - is nearly identical to ours (Catholic). She jokes that I'm a Jain in training & I call her almost Catholic. Another major difference is that they believe in reincarnation. (I'm okay with going through this once.) She told me that we have anthropomorphized the natural universe's organizing power into a deity; I responded that it was God that made us in His image.

[stevil]

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1311375875' post='2274030']
Ah. Okay. When I said that there is no default position, I meant that there is no proof one way or the other, so we must choose. What you see as your default position I see as a choice that you have made. (I still don't know why you compared yourself to a dog and a car.)
[/quote]
To clarify, a dog and a car lack a belief in god. This does not mean that they believe that there is no god. They simply have no belief on the matter. In this way I am similar to them. Although I have heard and somewhat understood some god theries, I have not shifted from my default position.


[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1311375875' post='2274030']
Are you suggesting that most atheists are as thoughtful and responsible as you are? Or that most religious people are rigid and, therefore, irresponsible?
[/quote]
No, not at all.
Just that Atheists must make their own decisions on each and every "moral" where-as it seems that church going theists are expected to align their understanding on morals with that which is taught by their church.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311394422' post='2274169']
No, not at all.
Just that Atheists must make their own decisions on each and every "moral" where-as it seems that church going theists are expected to align their understanding on morals with that which is taught by their church.
[/quote]

People who choose to belong to religious groups do also make their own decisions on each & every moral issue. In one cases a person may change religious affiliation to fit his or her own personal morals, in another case a person may choose to remain in a religious organization despite disagreement over a moral issue.

In regards to the latter case, some people might have a problem with it while others will not. While I don't really understand it, I will not say that someone should leave the Catholic church because they disagree with the Magisterium on an issue - especially if that person feels called to be Catholic. Everyone has a different journey in life - who am I to decide when & how someone else should understand God's word?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1311396162' post='2274188']
People who choose to belong to religious groups do also make their own decisions on each & every moral issue. In one cases a person may change religious affiliation to fit his or her own personal morals, in another case a person may choose to remain in a religious organization despite disagreement over a moral issue.

[/quote]
I also find this interesting, the idea of seeking a group that fits "me" instead of seeking truth. I think that many protestants do this - they seek a group that believes what they believe, and then adhere to that.

[stevil]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1311396680' post='2274194']
I also find this interesting, the idea of seeking a group that fits "me" instead of seeking truth. I think that many protestants do this - they seek a group that believes what they believe, and then adhere to that.
[/quote]
That's the thing with the Catholic Church.
With it's claim to be Jesus' church, to claim to be divinely guided, to claim to be infallible, surely there can be no cherry picking. Either a person must accept all the teachings of the Catholic Church or hence believe that the Catholic Church is not what it claims to be. If this is the case then that person surely cannot claim to be Catholic.
How can they follow the Church but not believe it or respect it on its claim to divinity.
In my view a Christian who wants to interpret the Bible themselves and not take on the Church's interpretations, well this person cannot be Catholic.

Please don't be upset, this is just my thoughts, I'm probably wrong and expect someone will show me just how wrong I am.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311400752' post='2274221']
That's the thing with the Catholic Church.
With it's claim to be Jesus' church, to claim to be divinely guided, to claim to be infallible, surely there can be no cherry picking. Either a person must accept all the teachings of the Catholic Church or hence believe that the Catholic Church is not what it claims to be. If this is the case then that person surely cannot claim to be Catholic.
How can they follow the Church but not believe it or respect it on its claim to divinity.
In my view a Christian who wants to interpret the Bible themselves and not take on the Church's interpretations, well this person cannot be Catholic.

Please don't be upset, this is just my thoughts, I'm probably wrong and expect someone will show me just how wrong I am.
[/quote]
I agree with this. I can see Adrestia's point going to the point where a person who does not agree with everything the Church teaches could still remain in the Church, so long as that person is working towards/praying for an acceptance of the Church's teachings, and does not by word or deed contradict those teachings in the meantime.

Edited July 23, 2011 by USAirwaysIHS