Seven77 Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 But what if you are in a state of mortal sin? Haven't you basically ceased to be a Christian (other than having records, formal membership, etc.)?
Seven77 Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 [quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1312052660' post='2278581'] You will know a tree by its fruits. [/quote] What if the tree is nuts?
stevil Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1312050961' post='2278560'] If you have been baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - you are a Christian, whether you act like it or not is immaterial. Baptism cannot be lost or revoked, it is a permanent change in your soul. If you are not baptized in this way you are not a christian. [/quote] This is very interesting. Baptism to me seems very much to be a one time symbolic act and for many it is forced upon them by their parents when they are infants, they have no choice in the matter and no memories of the event. What if a baptized person goes on to convert to another religion, say muslim or bhudism or pagan or hindi, does it then get negated or would you consider this person still to be a Christian regardless that they are actively practising and self associated by a competing religion? Given that babies are baptised against their will, what are the requirements of a baptism? What is to stop a priest from going to public swimming pools/hot pools and saying silent prayers inside his head and thus sneakily baptising everyone in the pool?
cmotherofpirl Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 [quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1312052668' post='2278583'] But what if you are in a state of mortal sin? Haven't you basically ceased to be a Christian (other than having records, formal membership, etc.)? [/quote] Being in a state of mortal sin has no effect on your baptism and therefore the fact you are a christian, just not a very good one.
Adrestia Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Mr. Catholic Cat - Does it matter if you or I can tell if another person is being deceitful? I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. A person demonstrates their faith by living it. To be in a state of mortal sin, a person has to understand the concept of mortal sin. I'm not sure how one could understand that without being a Christian.
infinitelord1 Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 As far as trying to determine how good of a Christian someone is.... [Matthew 7:1-2]- "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][color="#001320"]I think we can all be guilty of judging others in the heat of our anger towards them. But in the long run it is still wrong. And it is something we should be careful about. [/color][/font]
Groo the Wanderer Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 I fail to understand why the world expects Christians to be perfect and sinless. The root of the Gospel is that even while we were sinners, Christ died for us. For always and forever.
BG45 Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1312053802' post='2278594'] To be in a state of mortal sin, a person has to understand the concept of mortal sin. I'm not sure how one could understand that without being a Christian. [/quote] I agree. I was sitting there at Mass today, waiting for my row to get back from receiving, talking to God about being in a state of mortal sin. And eventually it hit me, "Yeah I'm sorry for committing the offense, but worse than the offense is that I cut myself off from going up there to eat the Bread of Life. I physically am without the Body of Christ in me today because of what I did."
Azriel Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1312067108' post='2278689'] I fail to understand why the world expects Christians to be perfect and sinless. The root of the Gospel is that even while we were sinners, Christ died for us. For always and forever. [/quote] I've said it before, humans are humans. Doesn't matter what 'ism you belong to.
4588686 Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1312067108' post='2278689'] I fail to understand why the world expects Christians to be perfect and sinless. The root of the Gospel is that even while we were sinners, Christ died for us. For always and forever. [/quote] Because why would anyone trade an eternity of perfect joy for a finite sin. It suggests a lack of sincerity of belief. Why are you on the internet right now? Why aren't you doing penance? Why would you spend a single moment either ensuring that you were reconciled with God or doing penance to ensure your swift bypass through purgatory once you are reconciled? If you really believed all this stuff.
Kia ora Posted July 31, 2011 Author Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312044836' post='2278525'] I was being very sarcastic when I wrote that. Please excuse me. [/quote] My sarcasm meter is in need of urgent fixing. Maybe I've been coming at this the wrong way. I'm not so interested in how you become a Christian, but what [i]being[/i] a Christian means. Of course you gotta believe in something to be a Christian, but it won't do much good to believe that Jesus is God and still sin like no tomorrow. In a way I think that's the hardest part. Baptism is just once. A creed you can assent to. But a life is lived, and taking up the cross and following Him takes all your strength, all your soul etc. How does a person know that she is following Jesus Christ in her daily actions and thoughts? Edited July 31, 2011 by Kia ora
Lil Red Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1312083028' post='2278817'] My sarcasm meter is in need of urgent fixing. Maybe I've been coming at this the wrong way. I'm not so interested in how you become a Christian, but what [i]being[/i] a Christian means. Of course you gotta believe in something to be a Christian, but it won't do much good to believe that Jesus is God and still sin like no tomorrow. In a way I think that's the hardest part. Baptism is just once. A creed you can assent to. But a life is lived, and taking up the cross and following Him takes all your strength, all your soul etc. [b]How does a person know that she is following Jesus Christ in her daily actions and thoughts?[/b] [/quote] daily prayer, and nightly examination of conscience. and reminders of what it means to be holy (this will vary from person to person). i think those are helpful beginnings. Edited July 31, 2011 by Lil Red
BG45 Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 [quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1312083028' post='2278817'] My sarcasm meter is in need of urgent fixing. Maybe I've been coming at this the wrong way. I'm not so interested in how you become a Christian, but what [i]being[/i] a Christian means. Of course you gotta believe in something to be a Christian, [b]but it won't do much good to believe that Jesus is God and still sin like no tomorrow[/b]. In a way I think that's the hardest part. Baptism is just once. A creed you can assent to. But a life is lived, and taking up the cross and following Him takes all your strength, all your soul etc. How does a person know that she is following Jesus Christ in her daily actions and thoughts? [/quote] I like you. Where were you when I went to a Baptist summer camp and the counselors were talking about Once Saved, Always Saved and how you could go on a mass killing spree and you'd go to Heaven because you accepted Jesus? Anyhow...daily prayer is a good start. I have certain ones I do daily, whether I pray anything else or not. Often by the time of I think of them, I'm ready to drop, but force myself to do them. What kind of Christian am I if I can't give God 30 or so minutes out of 24 hours? As to actions; I think Red's on the nose about examining conscience; though sometimes that happens as we're living our lives. Earlier for example, I was walking in the heat and humidity to go get a pizza at the mall and saw a woman with a kid and a kid in a stroller going for the doors. My first thought was, "I should go open the door", my second thought was, "I'm hot, I'm tired, I'm sweaty, she can get it". But conscience prevailed and I put on a little speed to get to the door first to hold it for her. I wouldn't have been a bad Christian for not holding the door, but I felt like I had done the right thing according to my faith (and common decency) by holding that door.
infinitelord1 Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) hmmm. i just typed a bunch of stuff, and it didnt post. don't feel like typing again. maybe later. Edited July 31, 2011 by infinitelord1
homeschoolmom Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1312089991' post='2278888'] hmmm. i just typed a bunch of stuff, and it didnt post. don't feel like typing again. maybe later. [/quote] That's because you keep hitting the "report" button instead of the "quote" button.
homeschoolmom Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 [quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1312083028' post='2278817'] My sarcasm meter is in need of urgent fixing. Maybe I've been coming at this the wrong way. I'm not so interested in how you become a Christian, but what [i]being[/i] a Christian means. Of course you gotta believe in something to be a Christian, but it won't do much good to believe that Jesus is God and still sin like no tomorrow. In a way I think that's the hardest part. Baptism is just once. A creed you can assent to. But a life is lived, and taking up the cross and following Him takes all your strength, all your soul etc. How does a person know that she is following Jesus Christ in her daily actions and thoughts? [/quote] Look at how nice I am... Here's what infanitelord typed last night. I'm doing this because I feel like it, not because Mods have to or anything... [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1312089991' post='2278888'] Now we can get into the differences between Catholic and Protestant. Protestants believe that the only thing that you have to do to be a Christian is Believe, and once you believe you are saved (here on Earth). Catholics believe that you become a Christian in your Baptism. Baptism is to be done as a Profession of your Faith or Belief in Jesus Christ. Unless of course you are Baptized as an Infant and the Parents take full responsibility for making sure you grow in Faith. Anyways, Regardless of how you become a Christian, through Baptism, you are required to grow in Faith, have hope in Gods grace, Obey God, and love God as well as each other. That to me is a much much more complete definition of what it means to have Faith in God as opposed to just believing. . [/quote]
Groo the Wanderer Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1312078304' post='2278790'] Because why would anyone trade an eternity of perfect joy for a finite sin. It suggests a lack of sincerity of belief. Why are you on the internet right now? Why aren't you doing penance? Why would you spend a single moment either ensuring that you were reconciled with God or doing penance to ensure your swift bypass through purgatory once you are reconciled? If you really believed all this stuff. [/quote] mmm. yeah. wake up Hasan! sleep-posting may become habit-forming.
add Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 [quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1312035613' post='2278469'] Well obviously you can call yourself one, but how does a person know that they really are a Christian? Or is this just a silly question? [/quote] [b] They Will Know We Are Christian By Our Love, (we will walk hand and hand) [/b] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaaIBcqcVig"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=kaaIBcqcVig[/url]
cooterhein Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1312035613' post='2278469'] Well obviously you can call yourself one, but how does a person know that they really are a Christian? Or is this just a silly question? [/quote]No, not silly, it's a good question. I'm glad you cleared up the "being a Christian" as opposed to "becoming a Christian"- I know it can be frustrating when responses pertain to something that's related and very similar but they don't quite address what you need. When I answer this kind of question, I do my best to keep the focus on where God is and what He's doing. If I were focusing more on becoming a Christian (which I'm not), the focus would be on this thing that happens where God transforms a person from a non-Christian to a Christian (also known as regeneration) and begins indwelling that person. But that's not the focus. In order to know if you currently are a Christian, a good starting point would be to look back on your life and see if there was ever a time when you stopped being an unregenerate non-Christian with no Holy Spirit dwelling within and you started being a regenerate person by means of God transforming you and then you did start having the Holy Spirit dwelling within you. It's important to have that as a starting point because if you're not really sure that you've experienced both kinds of things, it's extremely difficult to make any kind of comparison. If you haven't experienced both states, how can you expect to know the difference? After that, I guess the next step is to see if God currently indwells you at this time. God- more specifically the Holy Spirit. One of the reasons He indwells people is to help you answer the question you're asking right now. You can do a few things other than trying to place where He is, though- it can make things a bit easier if you can identify all the different things the Holy Spirit does when He does indwell people. Then you can look at yourself and see if He is doing those things. That's a slightly less direct approach, anyway. There's also the extremely direct approach of asking yourself if God indwells you and answering that based solely on whether He's there or not. It's extremely direct, but it can be hard to know for sure if that's all you do. Speaking for myself, I typically go with a holistic approach and try to cover all my bases. I'm not Catholic, btw, so asking myself about sacramental grace isn't as much a part of the picture. If it was, though, I would still keep the focus on what God has or hasn't done. I wouldn't want to assume that God has done something or that God is necessarily dwelling somewhere based solely on whether [b]I've[/b] done a certain ritual. If [b]He[/b] did do something that coincided with a ritual or rite, that's great. But in order for me to know that He did, that knowledge had better be based on the simple fact that He did rather than on my assumption that He must have. Infant baptism is one obvious exception to this rule- you take it on faith or you don't- but I'm pretty sure it applies to everything else. Edited July 31, 2011 by cooterhein
thessalonian Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) [b][url="http://www.faithalone.org/index.html"] [/url][/b] [b] Matthew 7:21-23[/b] [b] [/b] [b]21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES the WILL of My Father in heaven.[/b] [b]22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"[/b] [b]23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."[/b] Edited July 31, 2011 by thessalonian
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