Time To Become A Nun Changed Since St. Therese

[emmaberry]

[quote name='maximillion' timestamp='1348680254' post='2486954']
It is true that I had little idea 'what I was getting into' when I entered the cloister. There were no live-ins back then, I stayed with the community in the guest house for a fortnight, ate my meals alone served by the Sr Extern, and joined the sisters for parts of the liturgy on the public side of the grille. My first sojourn into the enclosure was when I went to petition R Mother to enter. This took place the day before I was due to leave the community. The response came a week later and I handed in my notice at work.

There was and I think there probably still is, a bit of a culture shock when you enter. I remember hearing a Nashie on one of their vids saying how after a couple of weeks after her entry she felt like she could do with a day lounging on the sofa, and it was a shock when she realised she would probably never spend a day lounging on the sofa ever again!

However, I am not sure I agree that this is one of the main reasons we left the convent in our droves post V2. I had been in Perpetual Vows for seven years when I asked for exclaustration. I think after fourteen years in the enclosure I pretty much knew what the life was like!
V2 brought it's own difficulties, and my community was not the only one who 'threw the baby out with the bath water' in the Renewal process. It was the drastic changes and the way they were rushed in that threw me off balance and made me question. I am not saying this happened everywhere, but I think since there has been a return to some of those older values and traditions, we are seeing an upsurge in vocations.
We can be very spiritual and say that the Holy Spirit was working even in the turmoil of that time, and I am sure He was, it was not always possible to see it back then.
So no, I can't agree that we left because we didn't know what we were getting into..................
[/quote]

Thanks for sharing, maximillion. I can only imagine the turmoil and desperation many religious, especially contemplative nuns, must have felt in the hectic change after Vatican 2. This leads me to a question: I know solemn vows are for life, through good and bad like the vows of marriage, but is there a mutually understood 'breaking' point at which the vows need not be honored within most communities? One thing that could happen with a Poor Clare community where the Abbess is the highest authority and directly accountable to St. Clare is corruption. What happens if an Abbess becomes corrupt and heterodox? Is this something that Sisters in solemn vows have thought about and are prepared to stay with the community for?

It may seem silly to think of these extreme situations, but I can't assume everything will be fine and dandy when so many left in droves after the Council, and I know all these Sisters weren't expecting their orders to change so radically when they first entered. If I were contemplating marriage with someone, I would envision 'worst case scenarios' too, to make sure I was prepared for everything I would be vowing to this person: for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health. Maybe this is my pessimistic/over-thinking side showing through..

I'd love to hear other's thoughts and opinions regarding such 'change' and the intent of solemn vows concerning this.

Edited September 27, 2012 by emmaberry

[Maggyie]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1348710620' post='2487142']
Thanks for sharing, maximillion. I can only imagine the turmoil and desperation many religious, especially contemplative nuns, must have felt in the hectic change after Vatican 2. This leads me to a question: I know solemn vows are for life, through good and bad like the vows of marriage, but is there a mutually understood 'breaking' point at which the vows need not be honored within most communities? One thing that could happen with a Poor Clare community where the Abbess is the highest authority and directly accountable to St. Clare is corruption. What happens if an Abbess becomes corrupt and heterodox? Is this something that Sisters in solemn vows have thought about and are prepared to stay with the community for?

It may seem silly to think of these extreme situations, but I can't assume everything will be fine and dandy when so many left in droves after the Council, and I know all these Sisters weren't expecting their orders to change so radically when they first entered. If I were contemplating marriage with someone, I would envision 'worst case scenarios' too, to make sure I was prepared for everything I would be vowing to this person: for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health. Maybe this is my pessimistic/over-thinking side showing through..

I'd love to hear other's thoughts and opinions regarding such 'change' and the intent of solemn vows concerning this.
[/quote]

Religious vows, even solemn vows, are unlike marriage, in that they are NOT "undoable." In certain circumstances they can and have been dispensed, by the proper authorities. Certainly the extreme possibilities you mention would fall under that heading! I know a woman who left a cloistered order after solemn profession and it was due to damaging and unhealthy leadership. The vows are not a suicide pact as it were... even in marriage, sometimes the Church acknowledges it's best for husband and wife to live apart or even obtain a civil divorce, though they remain married in the eyes of God.

[Totally Franciscan]

Oh my goodness, Emmaberry, I have first hand knowledge of my superior not corrupt, but mentally ill; however, I think the outcome was the same. Eventually, the entire community was disbanded by the bishop due to decisions she made that took the entire cloistered community off track, so to speak. I will not go into details, but I would like to reply about your sentence, "Is this something that Sisters in solemn vows have thought about and are prepared to stay with the community for?" From personal knowledge of living with these nuns going through this type of horror, I can say without a shadow of doubt that their response was to obey, let whatever happens happen. They went on with their religious lives and stayed the course to the end while all around them chaos ensued. I never heard them question her or her decisions. After all, the superior is the voice of God. At the end, the bishop gave the nuns choices. One was to have their solemn vows dispensed and return to lay life (most chose this option). Those under solemn vows who did not want their vows dispensed, the bishop sold all the assets of the community, and the diocese would take care of them until death living in a Catholic nursing home. Those in private vows, those vows were canceled by the bishop. I doubt whether any nun thinks in terms of this kind of thing happening, but it is always a possibility.

[maximillion]

Agree with the above posters. Of course none of us wants to think about worse case scenarios in advance, but I think you are only being prudent Emmaberry, to think about what you may do in such a situation.

Most of the nuns in my community did as TF speaks of above....obeyed. I think it is well written about that unless one is being instructed to deliberately harm self or others, this is the correct spiritual attitude to take. One fulfils ones Vows, no question.
The changes post V2 were not the only thing that affected me. I was caught between a traditionalist Jesuit and a modernist Franciscan. These two holy men waged a personal battle for academic, theological supremacy through me (they were both appointed as my personal tutors). This was very unfortunate for me and when I became very anxious and my health started to suffer....I made my petition.

I always considered my Vows to be Perpetual and have maintained them to the best of my ability in the world. I am obedient to the Church and my local pastor, I live quietly, having minimal contact with the outside (no newspapers, very careful choice of TV, limited no of friends and activities etc), and share through tithing a proportion of my income with those in need. This last is nothing like Holy Poverty, sadly. I have also remained chaste and celibate. This is nothing even approaching a cloistered, poor and obedient life, and I am saddened now only by my own dim witted-ness in not having applied for entrance to some other community once having left my own. I just didn't think I would ever be accepted.

I think this is another difference between then and now, as was noted in another thread, people do discern out then re-enter somewhere else. I don't think this was done in my time, or if it was, I never heard of it.

The internet has brought many changes, not least the possibility of finding out about more communities, in more detail - even those that have no web-site are talked about on VS (Praise HIM), and there are so many generous folks who share their stories and information, offer to find things out etc, that yes, much more is known pre-entrance..........but it is still a culture shock!

[emmaberry]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1348713242' post='2487163']
Religious vows, even solemn vows, are unlike marriage, in that they are NOT "undoable." In certain circumstances they can and have been dispensed, by the proper authorities. Certainly the extreme possibilities you mention would fall under that heading! I know a woman who left a cloistered order after solemn profession and it was due to damaging and unhealthy leadership. The vows are not a suicide pact as it were... even in marriage, sometimes the Church acknowledges it's best for husband and wife to live apart or even obtain a civil divorce, though they remain married in the eyes of God.
[/quote]
[quote name='Totally Franciscan' timestamp='1348713475' post='2487166']
Oh my goodness, Emmaberry, I have first hand knowledge of my superior not corrupt, but mentally ill; however, I think the outcome was the same. Eventually, the entire community was disbanded by the bishop due to decisions she made that took the entire cloistered community off track, so to speak. I will not go into details, but I would like to reply about your sentence, "Is this something that Sisters in solemn vows have thought about and are prepared to stay with the community for?" From personal knowledge of living with these nuns going through this type of horror, I can say without a shadow of doubt that their response was to obey, let whatever happens happen. They went on with their religious lives and stayed the course to the end while all around them chaos ensued. I never heard them question her or her decisions. After all, the superior is the voice of God. At the end, the bishop gave the nuns choices. One was to have their solemn vows dispensed and return to lay life (most chose this option). Those under solemn vows who did not want their vows dispensed, the bishop sold all the assets of the community, and the diocese would take care of them until death living in a Catholic nursing home. Those in private vows, those vows were canceled by the bishop. I doubt whether any nun thinks in terms of this kind of thing happening, but it is always a possibility.
[/quote]
[quote name='maximillion' timestamp='1348766080' post='2487264']
Agree with the above posters. Of course none of us wants to think about worse case scenarios in advance, but I think you are only being prudent Emmaberry, to think about what you may do in such a situation.

Most of the nuns in my community did as TF speaks of above....obeyed. I think it is well written about that unless one is being instructed to deliberately harm self or others, this is the correct spiritual attitude to take. One fulfils ones Vows, no question.
The changes post V2 were not the only thing that affected me. I was caught between a traditionalist Jesuit and a modernist Franciscan. These two holy men waged a personal battle for academic, theological supremacy through me (they were both appointed as my personal tutors). This was very unfortunate for me and when I became very anxious and my health started to suffer....I made my petition.

I always considered my Vows to be Perpetual and have maintained them to the best of my ability in the world. I am obedient to the Church and my local pastor, I live quietly, having minimal contact with the outside (no newspapers, very careful choice of TV, limited no of friends and activities etc), and share through tithing a proportion of my income with those in need. This last is nothing like Holy Poverty, sadly. I have also remained chaste and celibate. This is nothing even approaching a cloistered, poor and obedient life, and I am saddened now only by my own dim witted-ness in not having applied for entrance to some other community once having left my own. I just didn't think I would ever be accepted.

I think this is another difference between then and now, as was noted in another thread, people do discern out then re-enter somewhere else. I don't think this was done in my time, or if it was, I never heard of it.

The internet has brought many changes, not least the possibility of finding out about more communities, in more detail - even those that have no web-site are talked about on VS (Praise HIM), and there are so many generous folks who share their stories and information, offer to find things out etc, that yes, much more is known pre-entrance..........but it is still a culture shock!
[/quote]

Thank you so much for the replies! I am glad that the Church has guidelines for solemnly professed Sisters if things go sour...not that things [i]will[/i] go sour, but it is good for peace of mind, much like Maggie's example of separation in marriage, which would give me peace of mind if myself or a friend were marrying-that if there was rampant infidelity, abuse, or some other horrible change in the marriage, the Church does not say, "Too bad, you made vows."

[Orans]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1348713242' post='2487163']
Religious vows, even solemn vows, are unlike marriage, in that they are NOT "undoable." In certain circumstances they can and have been dispensed, by the proper authorities. Certainly the extreme possibilities you mention would fall under that heading! I know a woman who left a cloistered order after solemn profession and it was due to damaging and unhealthy leadership. The vows are not a suicide pact as it were... even in marriage, sometimes the Church acknowledges it's best for husband and wife to live apart or even obtain a civil divorce, though they remain married in the eyes of God.
[/quote]

I'm not sure if I understand correctly what is said here -that is the "undoable" thing.

Certainly religious vows are similar to marriage vows, but are also very different.

We know that for us Christian Catholics, marriage is indissoluble. That is, there is no divorce or breaking of the marriage bond. This is based on Jesus himself in the Gospel. The Church allows for legal separation of the couple but they are still married and cannot marry another person. There is also the canonical process called "annulment". But this is NOT an annulment of the marriage that existed before: it is, in fact, a DECLARATION of NULLITY, meaning that the marriage was never valid or existing even though the externals took place.

This is different from the case of religious vows. ALL religious vows that are made under the authority of the Church, can also be suspended -ended- by the authority of the Church. This is the case of so many religious we all know who left their Communities and returned to secular life, they got dispensation of their vows.

This dispensation may be requested by the individual, or might be imposed upon him/her if there has been a violation of the obligations according to Canon Law.

This is how I understand the difference between marriage (a sacrament in itself which cannot be reversed if it really existed) and religious vows (promises made under the authority of the Church that can be terminated by the same authority). Maybe is the same that was stated before, if so, please accept my apology for repeating it.

Peace!