Facing A Fear

[InPersonaChriste]

As of late I haven't really been praying much. I have just been going through the motions. I still love God, but I am giving him the cold shoulder, and I think I know why.

I am a sinner as everyone else, but I have a horrible pride issue. I fear that if I become holy I will have to tell people my previous sins as examples or personal testimonies. My sins are many and I often get scruples, I fear that in confessing my sins to anyone else but my conffessor and my God would make people think less of me.

It took me quite a while for me to be thourough in confession. But I only remember enjoying confession when I knew that priests were not aloud to tell anyone else about my previous sins.

Is this Pride?


... ugh

[BarbTherese]

I'll have a try and hopefully those better informed than I will come into the thread.

I dont think there is any need to share with all and sundry one's past offences against the moral law and to do so would be foolish and lacking in prudence I would think. If one is applying to enter consecrated life or the priesthood there may be some need to reveal past matters to appropraite authority related to each. It depends on what questions are asked and what information is required. These authorities in The Church, I would think, are bound by confidentiality. To keep things confidential.

Criminal matters in one's past are the same, unless for some reason one is morally bound to reveal past criminal activities

We all make mistakes and I dont think it is pride not to want to reveal those mistakes to all and sundry, rather perhaps prudence - or a mixture of the two and dont be upset on that score. Where prudence ends and pride begins or similar can be near on impossible to discern. Only God can do this and our God judges with understanding Mercy and compassion on us poor struggling humans. Human nature can be cruel and gossip is always destructive, hence we are all entitled to a good reputation without outside destructive efforts with malice in mind. You could reveal past information in good faith, but those to whom you reveal it may not keep it as a sacred trust, which it is. Hence it is prudent to take care to whom you reveal what information.
[quote]
. I fear that if I become holy I will have to tell people my previous sins as examples or personal testimonies. My sins are many and I often get scruples, I fear that in confessing my sins to anyone else but my conffessor and my God would make people think less of me.

[/quote]
You can certainly strive for holiness without a need to reveal previous failures or give personal testimonies - and if these two latter cause you distress, then avoid them. Other than that, have a talk with Father in Confession about your concerns including the scruples.......... and dont give up prayer - Jesus said that the righteous have no need of a physician and the He came to save sinners. Hence His ear, it could be said, is always bent lovingly to the sinner. Recall the parable of the publican and the sinner. The publican is up the front telling God how wonderful he is because he is not like that sinner down the back of the church. The sinner in the back of the church does not even lift his eyes but bows his head saying "Have Mercy on me Lord, because I am a sinner" The Lord rejects the publican and embraces the sinner. We are all sinners and the gravest fault of all possibly is not to be able to see that with clarity.

If I revealed my past sins and offences, I just might be run out of town!

Edited September 13, 2011 by BarbaraTherese

[Aya Sophia]

Sin is a wounding (we are wounded by sinning and wounded by being sinned against) - the shame and fear associated with our sins (which only a repentant sinner feels) are signs that our wounds need healing. I had 3 or 4 years of highly concentrated healing in which I felt as though I were passing through a furnace - had to pass through it to come out the other side fully alive. During this time the Lord was wholly the [u]Divine Physician[/u] for me. I took my eyes off self (big relief to do that) and gazed at the healing Lord. For a long time I related to Him in no other way.The fact that you are aware of your sins and sinfulness is a great grace - you're on your way. Look to the Lord for healing - He has the words of eternal life. To whom else shall we go?

In addition to this, perhaps He will bring into your life a person who is wise and trustworthy and loving, someone who knows "what to do with" the fear and shame you feel now, who can be the agent of God's healing. I'll pray for this for you.

BT said above ; "If I revealed my past sins and offences, I just might be run out of town!" Roger that in a big way. Thank the Lord for His mercy which includes protection of the repentant sinner from further wounding . . .

[InPersonaChriste]

Thanks AyeSophia and Barbara Therese. Your words were very helpful!

[Luigi]

"These authorities in The Church, I would think, are bound by confidentiality. To keep things confidential.

Criminal matters in one's past are the same, unless for some reason one is morally bound to reveal past criminal activities..."


In regard to criminal matters.... If one were to enter an active order, one might be required to meet state certification laws that overlap with a ministry - teaching and nursing come immediately to mind, but there could be others. It is common practice in many professions to require criminal background checks. Those who have committed a felony will not be certified/licensed.

I think it differs from state to state and profession to profession. But if the crime was violent, involved sexual abuse, or involved drugs, chances of getting a license are very slim. On the other hand, there is often a appeals process. I know someone in a "trust" profession who was involved in white collar crime - financial stuff - she appealed and was granted the license. There are other considerations, such as whether the person was a minor when the crime was committed; often in those situations, the record is sealed.

I feel like this is a little bit of overkill - I doubt that anyone on Phatmass has been involved in seriously felonious activity, but you never know.

[InPersonaChriste]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1315936737' post='2304309']

I feel like this is a little bit of overkill - I doubt that anyone on Phatmass has been involved in seriously felonious activity, but you never know.
[/quote]

Thankyou for your words before this. I would not be surprised acually if some Phatmassers had commited crimes. We are not meant to be perfect!
(im not actually shouting... Im smiling as i write this actually)

[MithLuin]

And if you are applying to be a priest, I'm almost certain the diocese will ask you if you have ever been arrested...and then to explain if you answer in the affirmative. Legally, you don't always have to reveal the answers to such questions to potential employers, but are you really going to lie in your application for the priesthood???

In other words, the past happened, and confession and repentence don't erase it. So, occassionally, something from the past will resurface, and you'll have to deal with it (again) in the present, even though you've 'moved on' already. Maybe that's part of how me make reparation for our past sinful actions. You can't always escape the temporal consequences of sin.

[BarbTherese]

If my past failures were known that I would be "run out of town" was an exaggeration. The years when Bipolar Disorder was active has given me however some past colourful incidents and anecdotes when I daresay perhaps a few would have been glad to see the back of me. No criminal activity thankfully; however Bipolar is a dreadful illness and can bring about complete havoc and destruction in a life and even the lives of those around a sufferer. Also, The Lord does not always protect a person from the consequences of the past whether consequences are justified or not.

I read somewhere or other that The Church is a hospital for sinners not a club for saints. While we are called to perfection "be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is Perfect" - we fall short of this and far short of it according to Jesus: "Even the just man falls seventy times seven" and 70 x 7 is the biblical number for infinity and hopefully we are all repentant sinners renewed daily. I was really happy to read InPersonaChriste that the Sacrament of Penance brings you joy - hang on to that, it is indeed a great blessing and consolation. "Seek after Peace and pursue it" and Confession is a Sacrament of Peace.

Would not surprise me either if some Phatmassers had committed crimes. Certainly if one was applying for religious life or the priesthood and was asked about the past, then one would be morally bound to give an honest answer I should think.

[Aya Sophia]

[font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif]Responding to IPC above, I assumed the subject was plain old awful (non-criminal) personal sin. If a criminal act is involved then, of course, there is an additional, completely different set of responses needed by the criminal/sinner, as posters noted above.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif]The ref by BT to being “run out of town” I took to be a figure of speech but the statement around it effectively responds to IPC’s fear and the fear of many repentant sinners that if this, that or the other thing about them were known to others they would be rejected and condemned. It is tremendously helpful (reiterating what I said above) if such a person encounters in their journey someone to whom they actually can “bare their soul.” Opening up like this to the right person (someone wise, loving, compassionate, orthodox, etc.) can be the beginning of a new life for the rep. sinner. They see they have “told all” and not been rejected or condemned. They discover in a very tangible way the critically important truth that they are deeply [u]loveable[/u]. They can begin to accept and to integrate those aspects of themselves that before had bound them in chains of fear and shame. I pray for all PM’rs out there who are in need of such a blessed encounter – I ask the Lord to send into their lives a messenger of mercy, a guide to accompany them along the road to freedom.[/font]

[BarbTherese]

Good post!
We all are deeply loveable and deeply loved - and by revealing this in quite tangible ways to each other, we reflect the Love of God to each other who finds every single last one of us, regardless of spiritual state, as loveable and deeply loved. Our All Faithful God never withdraws His Love from us no matter how far we drift, rather it is we who can withdraw our love from Him by drifting far from Him. May we all strive and pray to be Messengers of God's Love and His Loving Mercy to all regardless and without exceptions and most especially to those most abandoned and rejected.

[InPersonaChriste]

You have pinpointed the fears of many a redeptive sinner.

[BarbTherese]

[quote]
[font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif]The ref by BT to being “run out of town” I took to be a figure of speech but the statement around it effectively responds to IPC’s fear and the fear of many repentant sinners that if this, that or the other thing about them were known to others they would be rejected and condemned. It is tremendously helpful (reiterating what I said above) if such a person encounters in their journey someone to whom they actually can “bare their soul.” Opening up like this to the right person (someone wise, loving, compassionate, orthodox, etc.) can be the beginning of a new life for the rep. sinner. They see they have “told all” and not been rejected or condemned. They discover in a very tangible way the critically important truth that they are deeply [u][u]loveable[/u][/u]. They can begin to accept and to integrate those aspects of themselves that before had bound them in chains of fear and shame. I pray for all PM’rs out there who are in need of such a blessed encounter – I ask the Lord to send into their lives a messenger of mercy, a guide to accompany them along the road to freedom.[/font]
[/quote]

I thought that the above certainly pinpoints the fears possibly of those who have repented of their past and are taking focused steps to move on from it. I think too that it is stated well by Aya Sophia. I think it also could speak to those who may be abandoned and rejected in some way. Sadly, sometimes we can travel with this worlds standards and without realizing it. And this worlds standards very much sets up a class system - some above, some below, some more and some less etc. etc and according to stated criteria.

We are told that Heaven rejoices at the return of one single sinner and nowhere does Jesus state that Heaven rejoices over some other situation (although I am sure that Heaven does - but Jesus thought the return of the sinner worth 'hammering home' and for obvious reasons. We are all sinners, we all need to return and repent, begin again, and to know that Heaven rejoices when we do)- and Jesus, in His time here on earth certainly never looked away in any way at all from those that society had abandoned and rejected for some reason, and sometimes this included the abandoned and rejected by His own religious tradition. Jesus was often a very contraversial and even problematic person to his own society and religious profession due to His attitudes and perspectives, concepts.
He did not only preach them, but He lived them out.
Ideally also, we are all repentant sinners having no cause at all to look down or reject any other person for any reason. Sadly this may not apply with some religious individuals or in some religious circles. And if we do look down on another for any reason, then we probably would fall into the classification of the publican in the parable of the publican and sinner where God rejects the publican for his self righteous attitude and embraces the sinner who has true sorrow in his heart and acknowledges that he is indeed a sinner. And we are all sinners and nowhere in the Bible are we informed that "this type of sinner is an ok type of sinner" - "but this sinner is not". Sin is sin and while some serious sin is a rejecting of God completely, all sin is in some way and in some degree to turn away from God. We are all coming from somewhere and we all have a past and if we look honestly into that past, we have failures to note. Ahhhh but my failures are only little ones, and yours are dreadful! That refelects the attitude of the publican in the parable of the publcan and sinner and it is the publican that God rejects - or his attitude rather. To my mind, God embraces the attitude of the sinner because humbly, the sinner sees himself as he really is before the Glory of God. The publican is deluded and in 'la la land' due to his own sense of his virtue and righteousness, which in the Presence of God Himself, is all he can see, all he can reflect upon.
[quote]

[url="http://www.catholictreasury.info/books/sinners_guide/sg46.phpExterior"]http://www.catholictreasury.info/books/sinners_guide/sg46.php[/url]
Exterior faults being evident to others, we consider them of greater moment than interior defects, and pay more attention to their amendment. Moreover, the exterior virtues, besides attracting more attention, excite more esteem than the practice of hope, charity, humility, fear of God or contempt for the world, though these interior virtues are more pleasing in the sight of God. "For man seeth those things that appear, but the Lord beholdeth the heart." (1Kg. 16:7). Therefore, as love of praise is one of the strongest and most subtle passions, beware lest it cause you to seek the virtues which are most esteemed by men, to the neglect of the interior virtues, which are more acceptable to God.

[/quote]

I hope InPersonaChriste that you have overcome your fears or at very least may be well on the way to doing so. Scruples, I know, are a cruel trial and suffering fraught with so many doubts and uncertainties, fears, and very often needlessly so. I really hope and pray your confessor can help you with this.

[InPersonaChriste]

I'm afraid that scruples started to be normal for me. And of course living out on a farm I would have countless hours to entertain doubts. Its getting out of this malicious cycle of emotion that is the hardest part.


The priest who knew me very well moved away, and I havent really felt comfortable with any of the other priest in our seperate parishes (though i know that reconciliation is the same and I am grateful for the chance to even have confession!).

Their is no use in tormenting myself about these things. Yet I continually do.

[beatitude]

[quote name='InPersonaChriste' timestamp='1315891814' post='2304112']
I am a sinner as everyone else, but I have a horrible pride issue. I fear that if I become holy I will have to tell people my previous sins as examples or personal testimonies. My sins are many and I often get scruples, I fear that in confessing my sins to anyone else but my conffessor and my God would make people think less of me.
[/quote]

It's not our duty for us to give deep personal testimonies about past sin to anyone.

It's our duty to do what Jesus asks of us.

Sometimes that might involve sharing a story about past sin, and if it does, then we can be sure that Jesus will give us the light to know what to say and how to say it. Once, when I was in a very weak and shaky place spiritually, a friend told me about some bad things she had done in the past. Objectively, they really were bad, and I would never have expected someone of her character to do such things. But I didn't respect her any the less for them. She told me her story because she had a sense that it would help me to grow stronger in my own battle, and she was right. She acted on a God-given instinct. To my knowledge, she has not told very many other people about those sins, and she certainly isn't hiring conference halls and making speeches about them. But she doesn't have to. God sent her to help me, and she helped me. That was it.

One day you might be asked to help a person in this way. Or maybe you will never have to do any such thing. Only God knows. But you can be sure that he will give you the ability to do whatever he does ask of you. You are his creation, he is forming you in his own image. All you have to do is say yes. This is why we must never be afraid to pray - his gift is too great for our fear. Jesus' words to the Samaritan woman sum it up perfectly: "If you only knew the gift of God, and who it is that is now speaking to you!"

We will lose our pride on the way, but we will gain so much more.

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='InPersonaChriste' timestamp='1315891814' post='2304112']
As of late I haven't really been praying much. I have just been going through the motions. I still love God, but I am giving him the cold shoulder, and I think I know why.

I am a sinner as everyone else, but I have a horrible pride issue. I fear that if I become holy I will have to tell people my previous sins as examples or personal testimonies. My sins are many and I often get scruples, I fear that in confessing my sins to anyone else but my conffessor and my God would make people think less of me.

It took me quite a while for me to be thourough in confession. But I only remember enjoying confession when I knew that priests were not aloud to tell anyone else about my previous sins.

Is this Pride?


... ugh
[/quote]

IPC,

Definitely keeping you in prayer; I understand all too well those moments. This shall pass.... Prayers that the Lord continues to strengthen you as you experience these moments of difficulty.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='InPersonaChriste' timestamp='1316178983' post='2305384']I'm afraid that scruples started to be normal for me. And of course living out on a farm I would have countless hours to entertain doubts. Its getting out of this malicious cycle of emotion that is the hardest part. The priest who knew me very well moved away, and I havent really felt comfortable with any of the other priest in our seperate parishes (though i know that reconciliation is the same and I am grateful for the chance to even have confession!). Their is no use in tormenting myself about these things. Yet I continually do. [/quote]

I know what you mean about scruples becoming the normal way of life - I suffered with scruples for years and weighed up every little matter, thought word and deed and then remained unsure of its nature. Whether it was sinful or not and tending towards that it was sinful. It is a dreadful state and spiritual writers do tend towards that it can be a growth stage in the spiritual life as one's conscience becomes sensitive to sin per se. It can also be the product of neuroses or psychological disorder. It can even be a mixture of the two. Once I realized I was scrupulous, I knew it was foolish to continue tormenting myself, and yet was unable to avoid doing so and often. This is a feature of the scrupulous state.

It sounds as if you are isolated and not a good place when one is suffering from scruples i.e. psychological isolation with only one's own company and that company most always a tormentor of what Peace one may experience, if any. Rest assured that the circumstances in which you find yourself, i.e. on a farm and rather isolated, and that that priest with whom you felt comfortable has moved away and you do not feel comfortable with subsequent priests are all well known to The Lord, who is permitting you to be in this scrupulous state. Since you do recognize your state as scruples (I did not initially) when you do go to Confession, mention to Father that you are suffering scruples and then mention anything that is disturbing your Peace and let Father work out (he is the expert) how to deal with what you do confess. If he simply gives you a penance and says nothing about what you have confessed, then pray your penance and be very assured that you are now in a state of all Grace with all your offences, whether real or imagined, are fully forgiven.
If you are being tormented over some particular matter that you may fear is serious and am unable to get to Confession, tell God you are sorry with all simplicity and resolve to go to Confession at your next opportunity. With that and with actually going to Confession at your next opportunity, you are fully forgiven. Having experienced scruples myself, if you start to fear that something is serious and you die before you can go to Confession, rest assured that your serious matter is forgiven anyway. This is because God knows that if you had the opportunity to go to Confession before death, you certainly intended to do so and would have done so.

I have read that the problem nowadays is not scruples, rather that many seem to have lost a sense of sin altogether. Of these two spiritual problems, the latter is the far more serious and concerning. Scruples are a product of the imagination, imaginary and unreal matters that torment a person. Loosing a sense of sin is a very real matter and nothing of the imagination where real and evem serious sin is disregarded as meaningless. Many of our saints suffered with scruples and scruples are cruel. But better scruples, if one had to choose, than to loose a sense of sin. Far better still is to move out of the state of scruples and with a heightened sensitivity to sin and failures - and I will be keeping you in daily prayer.

I am hoping that others will come into this thread on the matter of scruples - and it could be better in the spirituality forum and get more responses. You can always ask a moderator to transfer the thread for you if it would be better located elsewhere.

God bless and keep you as He does for scruples are not sinful - but they are a dreadful and cruel spiritual suffering................Barb
Edit: Another thing I recall from my own experience of scruples is that if you dont know whether to confess something or not, because you dont know whether it is a sin or not. Confess it anyway and tell Father you dont know whether it is sinful or not. Even though you do not feel comfortable with your current priests, be very assured Jesus will NOT allow you to be misled by them. Even though it may SEEM that they have. Been there and dont that! (smiling)

Edited September 17, 2011 by BarbaraTherese

[InPersonaChriste]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1316220906' post='2305650']

I know what you mean about scruples becoming the normal way of life - I suffered with scruples for years and weighed up every little matter, thought word and deed and then remained unsure of its nature. Whether it was sinful or not and tending towards that it was sinful. It is a dreadful state and spiritual writers do tend towards that it can be a growth stage in the spiritual life as one's conscience becomes sensitive to sin per se. It can also be the product of neuroses or psychological disorder. It can even be a mixture of the two. Once I realized I was scrupulous, I knew it was foolish to continue tormenting myself, and yet was unable to avoid doing so and often. This is a feature of the scrupulous state.

It sounds as if you are isolated and not a good place when one is suffering from scruples i.e. psychological isolation with only one's own company and that company most always a tormentor of what Peace one may experience, if any. Rest assured that the circumstances in which you find yourself, i.e. on a farm and rather isolated, and that that priest with whom you felt comfortable has moved away and you do not feel comfortable with subsequent priests are all well known to The Lord, who is permitting you to be in this scrupulous state. Since you do recognize your state as scruples (I did not initially) when you do go to Confession, mention to Father that you are suffering scruples and then mention anything that is disturbing your Peace and let Father work out (he is the expert) how to deal with what you do confess. If he simply gives you a penance and says nothing about what you have confessed, then pray your penance and be very assured that you are now in a state of all Grace with all your offences, whether real or imagined, are fully forgiven.
If you are being tormented over some particular matter that you may fear is serious and am unable to get to Confession, tell God you are sorry with all simplicity and resolve to go to Confession at your next opportunity. With that and with actually going to Confession at your next opportunity, you are fully forgiven. Having experienced scruples myself, if you start to fear that something is serious and you die before you can go to Confession, rest assured that your serious matter is forgiven anyway. This is because God knows that if you had the opportunity to go to Confession before death, you certainly intended to do so and would have done so.

I have read that the problem nowadays is not scruples, rather that many seem to have lost a sense of sin altogether. Of these two spiritual problems, the latter is the far more serious and concerning. Scruples are a product of the imagination, imaginary and unreal matters that torment a person. Loosing a sense of sin is a very real matter and nothing of the imagination where real and evem serious sin is disregarded as meaningless. Many of our saints suffered with scruples and scruples are cruel. But better scruples, if one had to choose, than to loose a sense of sin. Far better still is to move out of the state of scruples and with a heightened sensitivity to sin and failures - and I will be keeping you in daily prayer.

I am hoping that others will come into this thread on the matter of scruples - and it could be better in the spirituality forum and get more responses. You can always ask a moderator to transfer the thread for you if it would be better located elsewhere.

God bless and keep you as He does for scruples are not sinful - but they are a dreadful and cruel spiritual suffering................Barb
Edit: Another thing I recall from my own experience of scruples is that if you dont know whether to confess something or not, because you dont know whether it is a sin or not. Confess it anyway and tell Father you dont know whether it is sinful or not. Even though you do not feel comfortable with your current priests, be very assured Jesus will NOT allow you to be misled by them. Even though it may SEEM that they have. Been there and dont that! (smiling)
[/quote]

Thank You BarbaraTherese,

I pray to many of the saints who have suffered scruples. And oddly enough talking about this on the Phatmass Phorum has helped me get a little of my prayer time that i put aside back. Which is good! I hope that when I move next week to a closer location I may be able to take Spiritual Direction. It has been hard to not have someone to guide you when you live so far out in the country.

I am also incredibly scared of the move I do have to admit. I hope that other people will post their scruple dealings, or something else along those lines.

[BarbTherese]

I did a reply, IPC - and then lost it! I have to leave the computer now and am committed tonight too after Saturday Vigil Mass - but rest assured I will return. You are really doing great - the time we spend in prayer is not as important as the heart we bring to prayer - sharing with The Lord what is really in our hearts, since He knows our heart in the first place.

I am really hoping others will share in this thread too. "Bear ye one another's burdens" and it can be very true that a burden shared is aburden lightened and how else can we bear another's burdens unless they are willing to share them with us, as you have done in this thread - and giving us an opportunity to be helpful if we can.

God bless and I will catch up with you and this thread later, hopefully with more posts contributed. Scruples are not uncommon it seems, and some realize their problem, some do not. And the first step in overcoming any problem at all is to identify it and own it as our problem. Hence you are one step (at very least!) on the way to overcoming scruples............Barb

[InPersonaChriste]

We may have to start a "fresh" thread on the topic of scruples?

Thanks Barbara Therese!

[BarbTherese]

I think a new thread on "scruples" is an excellent idea! When you do, do you think it a good idea too to link to this thread in your post.?

Let me know which forum you choose - also I have been able to locate some good links and one excellent and highly recommended book on scruples (author a priest) and will wait until you advise me which forum you have chosen before posting same into the new thread. Would you mind posting your chosen forum into this thread for me please as for some reason I have lost my "New Content" feature.

Regards - Barb