Hair

[MarieLynn]

The Community that I was part of, my parents had to provide the wedding dress and veil. I think that they borrowed my cousin's bridal gown, on the condition that she had it returned to her afterwards. Our hair was cut during the ceremony as a symbolic gesture of renouncing the world, but was cut much shorter the next day by our NM. In fact it was still so short when i came out, it stuck up in all directions like a bottle brush. Mind you that was in in the late 1960's, and just before Vat 2. I'm not sure what the Order does now.

[MarysLittleFlower]

which types of orders have the wedding dress as part of the ceremony? I'm just curious...

all the symbolism is really neat!

Edited October 18, 2011 by MarysLittleFlower

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

To Miss Scripture--Do you feel comfortable telling us what the custom of the ND's is regarding the cutting of hair, both at the investiture ceremony and/or after.

I'm pretty sure (but don't hold me to it) that Laetitia Crucis said that hair cutting would not be part of her clothing ceremony. However, she had cut her hair pretty short beforehand, just for convenience--as had the postulant/novice before her. Apparently, in her community the Sisters wear their hair short for convenience, but not buzz-cut short.

I have also read that the Passionist nuns of Ellisville, MO shave their heads--not just a buzz cut. They say they do this, at least in part, because the cap (that I think is unique to the Passionists) fits better on a shaved head. But, it sounded as if they do not shave their heads until after first vows. Shaving their heads was not something that they were secretive about--they offered to show their shaved heads to a female reporter--although, obviously, there was no picture. (Note: I have NO idea whether shaving their head is unique to this particular community or whether some or all other Passionist nuns shave their heads.)

I thought that it made a lot of sense for Communities that cut the hair VERY short (or shave their heads) towait until first vows to do this (although some of the symbolism might be lost). The novitiate is a time when a woman is still discerning (and the Community is discerning, as well) whether the woman has a vocation, and a vocation to that community. I've never seen statistics, but I'd expect that women are far more likely to discern out of a community during the novitiate than after first vows (although, of course, that does happen, too) and that very short hair would make the transition much more difficult.

Another thing I have wondered about is whether cloistered communities are more likely to wear very short (buzz cut) or even shaved hair than active communities, or if there was no difference. (And, if there is a difference, it might vary by Order and Community.) I'd think that there would be a greater chance in an active community for a Sister's veil to accidentally fall off in front of people who are not members of the Order (and who might be very curious to see what a Sister's hair looks like under her veil). It would be much less embarrassing (and more modest) if the woman's hair was short, but not ultra-short, or anything that would be a source of amusement to others. On the other hand, to have buzz-cut hair as an active nun might make the action more of a sacrifice.

On the whole, I suspect that cutting the hair was much more of an act of sacrifice in centuries past, when women customarily kept their hair long, and in some societies, short hair was the mark of a prostitute (if I remember my history correctly). Nowadays, there are many secular women who wear their hair shorter than many veiled nuns wear it. Also, in some societies, long hair was the sign of an unmarried woman, while married women cut their hair. Thus, in those societies having her hair cut would be a sign that a woman was a bride of Christ.

Obviously, I am NOT an expert and this is just a collection of random thoughts. I'm sure there are others who would have much more knowledge to add, or may be able to give more detail or correct any mistakes I might have made.

Edited October 18, 2011 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[MissScripture]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1318961817' post='2323259']
To Miss Scripture--Do you feel comfortable telling us what the custom of the ND's is regarding the cutting of hair, both at the investiture ceremony and/or after.

[/quote]
As far as I know, after they've gotten the veil, they are able to keep it as long or as short as is comfortable for them, but I could be mistaken. Obviously, they can't completely shave it all off, as you can see some with their style of veils. I don't know if no one can cut their hair as postulants, or not, but I know my sister didn't. And when they get it cut when they get the habit, if it's long enough (which my sister's was) they donate it, which I thought was razzle dazzle. I honestly can't remember where in the course of things they got it cut. Sorry. My biggest concern over the whole thing was what her name was. I also was far more awed by her removable sleeves!

[Emma]

removable sleeves????

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1318994430' post='2323491']
As far as I know, after they've gotten the veil, they are able to keep it as long or as short as is comfortable for them, but I could be mistaken. Obviously, they can't completely shave it all off, as you can see some with their style of veils. I don't know if no one can cut their hair as postulants, or not, but I know my sister didn't. And when they get it cut when they get the habit, if it's long enough (which my sister's was) they donate it, which I thought was razzle dazzle. I honestly can't remember where in the course of things they got it cut. Sorry. My biggest concern over the whole thing was what her name was. I also was far more awed by her removable sleeves!
[/quote]

From the pictures of the clothing ceremony of the ND's, they do not get their hair cut before the ceremony, since in many of the pictures I have seen of postulants receiving their habits, their hair is still long. But, I didn't know if it got cut "behind the scenes" when the new novice put on her habit (with lots of sisters helping, so that the hair cutting of 20+ postulants did not make the ceremony even longer), or if it is cut the next day, for example.

Not related to hair, but to clothing--I wish I could remember the Order/Community but I think it was primarily Philipino, where her parents escorted each new postulant up the aisle to her clothing ceremony, and where the new novice's mother helped her (along with the Sisters) clothe her in her new habit. I thought it was a lovely way for parents to show their support, and be part of the ceremony dedicating their daughter to God's service.

Edited October 19, 2011 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[faithcecelia]

That reminds me. First time round I was very precious about my hair and did not want it cut if it was avoidable, so it was a question I asked early on to each community. The Poor Clares at Arundel said hair only had to be short enough to not show under their work veils, so sort of a tiny ponytail. They also told me that a token sacrifice was more important than the actual act of haircutting, and that they had had one Chinese sister who had absolutely beautiful clothes. When it came to her Clothing, she brought a pile of her clothes to the ceremony to be given to charity - she was giving up what she considered her beauty and femininity in the same way many see cutting their hair as doing the same.

[MarysLittleFlower]

"Another thing I have wondered about is whether cloistered communities are more likely to wear very short (buzz cut) or even shaved hair than active communities, or if there was no difference."

I have the same question! I do not know..

[Aya Sophia]

Seems, traditionally, in the Latin church nuns have cut off their hair as act of renunciation and keep it shorn under the veil but in the east (Orthodox churches, eastern Cath churches) nuns do [u]not[/u] cut their hair but wear it in a pony tail under their veil. I wonder if the latter has any ties to Orthodox monks not cutting their hair or beard, if the symbolism is the same (whatever that would be - don't know.)

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Emma' timestamp='1319043200' post='2323738']
removable sleeves????
[/quote]
In this picture, you see how it looks like there are two layers of sleeves (the more fitted one, and then the looser hanging sleeve)?
[img]http://www.madisondiocese.org/Portals/0/Vocations/Consecrated Life/Dominican1.jpg[/img]
When we were asking my sister about how many layers she was actually wearing in her habit, and she went through the whole description of what she had on, and none of us could figure out how she had 2 sets of sleeves. And my mom finally grabbed the edge of her fitted sleeve and said, "But what is THIS attached to?!?" And my sister pulled it out, and showed us that it was just held on above the elbow by elastic! We all thought that was the coolest thing. But then, we are easily amused.

[marigold]

[quote name='Aya Sophia' timestamp='1319080617' post='2324058']
Seems, traditionally, in the Latin church nuns have cut off their hair as act of renunciation and keep it shorn under the veil but in the east (Orthodox churches, eastern Cath churches) nuns do [u]not[/u] cut their hair but wear it in a pony tail under their veil. I wonder if the latter has any ties to Orthodox monks not cutting their hair or beard, if the symbolism is the same (whatever that would be - don't know.)
[/quote]

The symbolism is that you are completely devoted to the Lord, i.e. self-forgetful. And that, as with the Nazirines, the uncut hair corresponds to having made vows - "[i]cherishing the long hair of the head all the days of his vow to the Lord..." (Numbers 6:5-6)[/i]

[i<3franciscans]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1319128375' post='2324219']
In this picture, you see how it looks like there are two layers of sleeves (the more fitted one, and then the looser hanging sleeve)?
[img]http://www.madisondiocese.org/Portals/0/Vocations/Consecrated%20Life/Dominican1.jpg[/img]
When we were asking my sister about how many layers she was actually wearing in her habit, and she went through the whole description of what she had on, and none of us could figure out how she had 2 sets of sleeves. And my mom finally grabbed the edge of her fitted sleeve and said, "But what is THIS attached to?!?" And my sister pulled it out, and showed us that it was just held on above the elbow by elastic! We all thought that was the coolest thing. But then, we are easily amused.
[/quote]
This made me laugh. I feel like mine would be pulled off all the time!

[Cherie]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1319128375' post='2324219']
In this picture, you see how it looks like there are two layers of sleeves (the more fitted one, and then the looser hanging sleeve)?
[img]http://www.madisondiocese.org/Portals/0/Vocations/Consecrated%20Life/Dominican1.jpg[/img]
When we were asking my sister about how many layers she was actually wearing in her habit, and she went through the whole description of what she had on, and none of us could figure out how she had 2 sets of sleeves. And my mom finally grabbed the edge of her fitted sleeve and said, "But what is THIS attached to?!?" And my sister pulled it out, and showed us that it was just held on above the elbow by elastic! We all thought that was the coolest thing. But then, we are easily amused.
[/quote]

I was so proud of myself; I made my "removal sleeves" all by myself! First sewing project ever! :D I ended up helping with a few other ones, later, too.

I'm quite sure the ND's keep their hair short with regular hair cuts. At least that was the experience of one of our Sisters who had spent a few years with the NDs before coming to our community (and that we were founded by a former ND).

[brandelynmarie]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1319128375' post='2324219']
In this picture, you see how it looks like there are two layers of sleeves (the more fitted one, and then the looser hanging sleeve)?
[img]http://www.madisondiocese.org/Portals/0/Vocations/Consecrated%20Life/Dominican1.jpg[/img]
When we were asking my sister about how many layers she was actually wearing in her habit, and she went through the whole description of what she had on, and none of us could figure out how she had 2 sets of sleeves. And my mom finally grabbed the edge of her fitted sleeve and said, "But what is THIS attached to?!?" And my sister pulled it out, and showed us that it was just held on above the elbow by elastic! We all thought that was the coolest thing. But then, we are easily amused.
[/quote]
[quote name='i<3franciscans' timestamp='1319134059' post='2324279']
This made me laugh. I feel like mine would be pulled off all the time!
[/quote]
[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1319137831' post='2324318']

I was so proud of myself; I made my "removal sleeves" all by myself! First sewing project ever! :D I ended up helping with a few other ones, later, too.
[/quote]

I am really liking the idea of removable sleeves... Hmmmm...maybe I could use them with my scrubs at work! You know, too hot with a lab coat on, too cold with short sleeves!

[emmaberry]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1317235829' post='2311776']
Thought you all might enjoy this from [url="http://www.amazon.com/Therese-Lisieux-Helmuth-N-Loose/dp/0802838367"][i]Therese and Lisieux[/i][/url] <-- an incredibly beautiful book!!! Sorry it's blurry on the one side, but hopefully it's readable. Actually I noticed on Amazon you can see a preview of that page (143) too, if you're signed in.

[img]http://i55.tinypic.com/2dhv503.jpg[/img]


As for me, I can't wait to have my hair super short again! In one community I was in I had a buzz cut, and it was great! So fast in the shower! When I came home, I actually had it cut like that one more time and wore a bandana. Now my hair is waist length. Hope to donate it before I go again.

From St. Teresa's Constitutions, "They should keep their hair cut in order not to lose time in combing it. They are not to use mirrors, nor any other curious thing, but they are to live in complete self-forgetfulness." (Chapter VIII, paragraph 55)
[/quote]

So did St Therese play Joan of Arc before she cut her hair?
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pXFCD-mM1bM/RxkeZSAO7pI/AAAAAAAAABc/eNy0MqgEPSI/s1600/St.+Therese+as+St.+Joan+of+Arc.jpg[/img]

[PhuturePriest]

Though I am a man it is quite common for male communities to cut their hair Marine style (Which is basically nonexistent.). It saddens me because one of my favorite things is my feathery hair.

[AnneLine]

The answer to that question is... Therese is wearing a wig for the play OVER her toque (the white piece that goes around the face and under the scapular. It's pretty common for religious sisters to wear costumes OVER their habits (you see this sometimes on the Dominican Summit nuns web page, for example....

You can see just the bit of the white toque UNDER the veil at the top and under her chin in the photo below.

This website shows most of the photos of her and Celine during the play.... the one below is part of the the lowest photo on the page, where Therese and Celine are playing Joan of Arc and Catherine of Alexandria, respectively.

[url="http://www.maidofheaven.com/joanofarc_st_therese.asp"]http://www.maidofheaven.com/joanofarc_st_therese.asp[/url]

and here is the closeup of Therese....


[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6FbU2Wm8XDI/S8z3R5SSh3I/AAAAAAAAAJk/_5cLZaqeGDw/s320/Therese+as+Joan+of+Arc.jpg[/img]

[emmaberry]

Thank you AnneLine! I have seen that picture before and it always made me go "huh?"

I don't know if you read this off the site you referenced, but I thought it was so interesting!

"The picture above of Saint Thérèse as Saint Joan is from [url="http://www.carmelite.com/therese2002/photo3.htm"]Carmelite.com [/url]What amazes me about this picture is that if you look closely at her eyes you can see what appears to be the cross. I checked and the images of the cross can be seen in the original photograph that was taken with her sister Céline portraying St. Margaret however the images are not as distinct as in the picture above. It can be debated whether or not her eyes are reflecting a cross that stands in the center of the courtyard where the photo was taken but whatever the true cause, divine or otherwise, the crosses in her eyes seems so appropriate for St. Thérèse and her expression in this picture. It is as if her eyes are reflecting the glory of her Lord as her face expresses her deep love for Him."

On a side note: aren't we so lucky to have pictures of St Therese!?? If there's one thing that makes me appreciate technology, it's hot running water and PICTURES of the Saints! If only we could have a real picture of Mary or Saint Frances or countless others!

I also looked up St Anne Line--she is razzle dazzle!!!

Edited June 14, 2012 by emmaberry

[AnneLine]

We should be grateful to God that we do have SO many pictures of Therese and her community. It was NOT a very common thing for Carmels to do at that time -- maybe a picture at reception of the habit and at profession, or after a sister was dead, but usually that was that! It is only because Mother Agnes (Therese' sister Pauline) allowed Celine to bring her camera in with her when she entered, that they had the equipment.

Most of you probably know that Celine agreed to stay home to take care of their Father, Bl. Louis, delaying her own planned entrance into Carmel. While she waited, her father let her have art and photography lessons.... and she was able to get her own camera. At that time photographers had to know how to print their own photos, and photographers had all their own equipment. It was because of that that Celine brought all that with her when she entered Carmel.

The equivalent would be a 21st century prioress allowing a postulant to bring their laptop, and all the videography equipment and CD making equipment with her when she entered!!!

The sisters took pictures of each other at recreation.... and when Therese got so sick, they took extra photos of her as well. I am blessed to have a copy of Peter Thomas Rohrbach's book [i]The Photo Album of St. Therese [/i]which has ALL the photos in it, along with close-ups of many of the shots. The text explains where and when each photo was taken.... and it also identifies all the nuns. One can SEE the sisters that St. Therese lived with!

[truthfinder]

If I remember correctly, because of the fear nuns still had in France of being persecuted, the nuns kept wigs in the convent if they were ever forced out. This would be so they didn't stand out if they all had short hair.