Divorce In The Bulletin

[thessalonian]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1318711086' post='2321719']

Yes the Catholic Church has changed. Pope John Paul the 2nd added Canon's that gave [b]NEW[/b] reasons to grant annulments. The old Catholic Church had alienated a number of divorcee's with its old hard-line stance against divorce and remarriage. And they had dropped out... Arguably Pope John Paul II was trying to keep divorcee's from leaving the Catholic Church.
[/quote]


"New reasons?". What might those be? Canon 1095 only clarifies the conditions that previously existed for an anullment. Clarifications are allowed in Catholicism. I am sure you are against development of doctrine but it is dogma of the CC. Stop derailing my thread. It is not helpful.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1318711188' post='2321721']
Again, please stay on topic. If you want to talk about the way you think the Catholic Church has changed please start a new thread. But remember to keep it within the guidelines.
[/quote]

[thessalonian]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1318711450' post='2321723']

Yes it is. When people get divorced and remarry they are committing adultery. This "breakdown" of marriage is harmful to kids and society as a whole. It's annoying that the Catholic Church cavalierly disregards what Jesus Christ taught when they not only offers classes so that their members may divorce smoothly -- but also post it in the Sunday bulletin.
[/quote]

This is not "THEE CC" posting in the bulletin. It is not in every bulletinin the diocese but in one! You are in fact derailing my thread. I wrote it. I should know. Start your own.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1318711497' post='2321724']
"New reasons?". What might those be? Canon 1095 only clarifies the conditions that previously existed for an anullment. Clarifications are allowed in Catholicism. I am sure you are against development of doctrine but it is dogma of the CC. Stop derailing my thread. It is not helpful.
[/quote]

I apologize if I am derailing your thread. I think that I pretty much agree with you -- except I don't agree with what I see as changes in the Catholic churches Canon. I think you summed it up pretty well when you said:

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1318700884' post='2321638']
While divorce is a reality these days and there are certain cases where the church tolerates it, I am not at all comfortable with what seems almost to be promoting it or to the point of throwing in the towel.
[/quote]

Edited October 15, 2011 by southern california guy

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1318700884' post='2321638']
The add below was in last weeks bulletin at a local church. I have to say I am disturbed by it. While divorce is a reality these days and there are certain cases where the church tolerates it, I am not at all comfortable with what seems almost to be promoting it or to the point of throwing in the towel. I am embarrassed that this was in a Catholic bulletin. Am I off?

Divorce Dos and Don't - Is divorce on the horizon for your or someone you care fore? Learn from a team of divorce professsionals about a) pros and cons of the five models of divorce, b) common mistakes to avoid, c) financial planning strategies available, d) the realities of co-parenting, and e) creating a plan of self care.
[/quote]

Ugh. I don't think you're off at all. Even if they were going to do something as wierd as advertising divorce counselling/info/whatever in the bulletin, that's NOT the wording you want to use at all. Does the parish have alot of couples that are getting annulments? They definitely should have [i]at the very least [/i]put something about God and a Catholic perspective.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Basilisa Marie

[MIKolbe]

If it were me, I would politely talk with Fr. about this. Where are the ads for Marriage Encounter? or Couples Bible Study?

I wish the Church offered and the parishes promoted more programs for the vocation of marriage.

I see annulment advocates in listed in the church bulletin; it would be promising to see a marriage advocate position created... iono... trying not to be too cynical as the Church does give us so much...I guess I see this as a growing need.

[Jaime]

Well I hope Catherine corrects this if its wrong but the Church isn't "against" divorce. If people need to divorce, they can. If they choose to do it as Catholics then they have to remain chaste (as we all do). If an annulment is recognized then they can marry again. If not they can't. But chaste divorced people are and should be welcomed in the Church.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='jaime (hotness personified) (hotness personified) (hotness personified) (hotness personified)' timestamp='1318720294' post='2321763']
Well I hope Catherine corrects this if its wrong but the Church isn't "against" divorce. If people need to divorce, they can. If they choose to do it as Catholics then they have to remain chaste (as we all do). If an annulment is recognized then they can marry again. If not they can't. But chaste divorced people are and should be welcomed in the Church.
[/quote]


What? your gotta be kidding me. We don't need to wait for Catherine.

[b]Catechism 2384 [/b][i]Divorce [/i]is a GRAVE OFFENSE against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery:

[b]2385 [/b]Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.

Here it is clear that divorce itself is bad. Not just chaste divorce people.

Edited October 16, 2011 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

In light of the CCC statements above it's a bit like saying "we have abortion counseling on how best to do it for those who are going to get an abortion". Certainly abortion is a more grave offense in the line of grave offenses but you see my point.

[thessalonian]

Correction - "Not just chaste divorce people." should be "Not just unchaste divorce people.". One who gets a divorce must confess it unless the reason fits what is specified in the Catechism and canon law.

Edited October 16, 2011 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

Correction - "Not just chaste divorce people." should be "Not just unchaste divorce people.". One who gets a divorce must confess it unless the reason fits what is specified in the Catechism and canon law before returning to the sacraments.

Edited October 16, 2011 by thessalonian

[Basilisa Marie]

If the Church really believed that there are no situations in which divorce can be proper action, then how come married couples have to get a divorce before they can get an annulment? Yes, divorce is an evil in itself, but there are situations where it can be better for a Catholic couple to get a divorce than to remain civilly married.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1318796621' post='2322197']
If the Church really believed that there are no situations in which divorce can be proper action, then how come married couples have to get a divorce before they can get an annulment? Yes, divorce is an evil in itself, but there are situations where it can be better for a Catholic couple to get a divorce than to remain civilly married.
[/quote]


I think this paragraph is the key to your question.

[b]2386 [/b]It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.

I have been through this myself. My ex wife told a friend she didn't want kids. But even then I don't know that I would have initiated it. I only think that in the rarest of circumstances a Catholic living the faith would, after they have been counseled that the marriage is not valid, initiate a divorce. Such cases where a Catholic might it seems to me, should be under the pastoral care of a priest or competent Catholic counselor who knows Church teaching thuroughly. Just putting an add in the bulletin like this seems to point people in that direction without proper counseling.

I will add that in most cases I know people do not get divorced with the idea that they are planning to get an anullment. Anullments it seems to me happen usualy long after the divorce when someone decides they want to get married again or has gotten married again and wants to return to the Church. It is true that the Church cannot grant an anullment without a divorce. People who don't have an anullment really shouldn't be dating.

Edited October 16, 2011 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

"then how come married couples have to get a divorce before they can get an annulment?"

I do believe that this is a legal requirement by the way.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1318797728' post='2322204']I have been through this myself. My ex wife told a friend she didn't want kids. But even then I don't know that I would have initiated it. I only think that in the rarest of circumstances a Catholic living the faith would, after they have been counseled that the marriage is not valid, initiate a divorce.[/quote]
i didn't realize that you had gotten a divorce. sorry to hear about that.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1318798935' post='2322219']
i didn't realize that you had gotten a divorce. sorry to hear about that.
[/quote]


It sucked but it was long ago. Thanks.

Edited October 16, 2011 by thessalonian

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1318709406' post='2321691']

No it's not like a candy machine. I don't think that the divorce is much of a treat for anybody.

The children of the divorcees also go through the pain and heartache. So maybe the Catholic church should provide counselling for them too?

a) There could be counselling where they teach the children that their parents were never really married.

b) They could explain why their parents marriage wasn't really valid -- and wouldn't qualify as the type of divorce and remarriage that Jesus Christ preached against in Mark chapter ten.

c) And they could counsel the children so that the children could feel better when they saw their father in a sexual relationship with a strange new woman, or their mother in a sexual relationship with a strange new man -- because this time the "marriage" would actually be "valid" and the vows would be real. [i] Or maybe not[/i].. if they were to get divorced again...
[/quote]

As the child of divorced and annulled parents I think I have a pretty dang good grasp on the process. Thanks anyway.

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1318709824' post='2321702']

First of all there is no such thing as divorce in the Church. It is a legal matter only. With regard to the sacrament of marriage...
Is it till death do us part or "till death do us part unless it gets difficult and we can't work things out". I know someone who has been struggling with depression for years. It affected his marriage and they ended up separating. He was taking medication but it didn't work. Finally he got on a different medication that helped greatly. But his wife now wants a divorce and priests in this parished have counseled her that it would be ok. There is little he can say or do at this point. I believe that the grace of Christ can always overcome the most difficult of marriages and "in sickness and in healt, for richer for poorer,etc. means what it says. To me that add undermines marriage.
[/quote]

I agree with you. But you already know that to get an annulment one must be legally divorced first. And that the whole thing is a crappy, painful process. Obviously, given your previous posts, I am preaching to the choir. I just want to be clear that I wasn't stating anything contrary to Church teaching, and I totally get why advertizing for "divorce counseling" in your parish bulletin is unsavory. It makes it feel/sound like there's an easy out or a free pass. I said what I did in my previous post because there is NO free pass or easy out. It's not something that happens overnight, and when you meant your vows you fight as long and as hard as you can to keep them. It kinda annoys me when I see people making statements that make it sound like no one does that when I know beaver dam well they do.

[tinytherese]

I may be wrong on this, but divorce though a very serious problem is not a sin, since there are situations in which being legally separated from one's spouse yet not pursuing a romantic relationship with another is beneficial and even necessary such as when one of the spouses is abusive. The problem is when people want to get married to someone else but they of course can't since regardless of your civil status, sacramentally you are still married to someone else.

I definitely agree that if you do not have an annulment from the Church that you have no business dating. You cannot assume that you can just date and that the Church will grant you an annulment when you feel like actually tying the knot with someone else because you may not qualify.

Morality aside from the fact the person is still married in the eyes of the Church until proven otherwise, I wouldn't want to put myself through a romantic relationship with a man in such a situation only to find out that an annulment is not possible for him to get. You form a bond with them and invest in yourself so much emotionally that it is no wonder that so many people leave the Church over this issue or get married by a justice of the peace. (Note I am not saying that being in this justifies doing such actions, just that I can understand why they would do so.) So honestly right after that civil divorce is final pursue that annulment early on to see if it is even possible. If it isn't then you need to commit yourself to essentially never pursuing a relationship.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1318706281' post='2321673']

And you think people [i]don't[/i] try to work out problems before going through the pain and heartache of divorce? I don't know [s]too many[/s] any people who approach the subject like it's a candy machine.
[/quote]

I agree that there are people who honestly do try to fight like heck to salvage their marriage and get divorced anyway, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people who don't try.

[Jaime]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1318795110' post='2322177']
In light of the CCC statements above it's a bit like saying "we have abortion counseling on how best to do it for those who are going to get an abortion". Certainly abortion is a more grave offense in the line of grave offenses but you see my point.
[/quote]

I don't see your point. There is never a reason for abortion. There are reasons for divorce that the Church wouldn't consider to be a grave offense. If a spouse is being abused and there is no end in sight, the Church would not consider that spouse leaving the situation to be sinful.