Attenboroughs Reason For Atheism

[stevil]

[quote name='rkwright' timestamp='1320864926' post='2333844']

Why? If I am an Atheist why should I tolerate idiots? or love my enemies. I'd much rather just kill them and live in peace.

BTW this is a totally serious question. I see all morality as derived from God. No God, No morality.
[/quote]
Atheists tend to be tolerant of people regardless of their level of intelligence. The best way to conquer your enemy is to make them your friend. If that is not possible it is then best to avoid them unless they present a physical threat.
In general Atheists are very law abiding citizens, they realise that this life is their only life and they don't want to waste it in prison. For an understanding of the consequenses of Atheism one only has to look towards the trends of secular law. Law not based on religious belief becomes instead a law based on much discussion and thought, an inclusive law that looks to represent the diversity of people within society. It is our aim not to repress, but to embrace diversity and incorage individualism whilst also setting ground rules to promote a functioning society.

Anyway, I only brought up the quote as it was posted in an earlier post on this thread, it is actually a very strong reason why I sotpped reading the bible. Firstly I am not looking for god, but I was interested in the Christian Mythology, so I started to read, but found the begining of the bible quite silly and getting to the quoted statement, quite sexist, encouraging of torture and punishing people for deeds performed not by them but others. I found this a terrible message and hence stopped reading.

I think this derail has gone on long enough, sorry to the original poster. Please get back to god's plan of intentionally creating organisms to attack, cripple and maim, human beings.

Edited November 10, 2011 by stevil

[Aloysius]

okay, so is this parasite specifically designed to only tunnel through human eyes? I was not under that impression, it sounds like it just has to tunnel through eyes in general to survive, and sometimes that means human eyes.

musturde, I was framing it based upon explaining to an atheist why an all-good God would create creatures that cause such suffering. I think the answer lies in a different understanding of why suffering is good and what kind of suffering is pointless. even if an atheist might have some degree of respect for suffering as beneficial, it would be more along the lines of "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger"; whereas the suffering I was talking about is "even what does kill us makes us better". one who doesn't believe in an afterlife views death as a final end, and thus sees no point in the type of suffering described here. so while there might be some counter-example to some of the absolute interpretations of what I was saying about atheists and suffering/life/and comfort, I still think it applies to the reason an atheist would not accept the argument, because the argument is based upon the premise of an afterlife.

stevil, I was describing what Christianity proclaims to those who are suffering: it proclaims that their suffering has meaning. what would be your message to someone suffering, someone dying? tolerance and love? that's even further off topic, and it's just vague platitude.

[stevil]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1320928419' post='2334238']
stevil, I was describing what Christianity proclaims to those who are suffering: it proclaims that their suffering has meaning. what would be your message to someone suffering, someone dying? tolerance and love? that's even further off topic, and it's just vague platitude.
[/quote]
I hope that Euthanasia becomes legal one day, I am sure it will. We offer a humane approach to a dieing non human animal and yet we force humans to suffer.
I would classify this option as showing love to the suffering person.

Edited November 10, 2011 by stevil

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1320948371' post='2334338']
I hope that Euthanasia becomes legal one day, I am sure it will. We offer a humane approach to a dieing non human animal and yet we force humans to suffer.
I would classify this option as showing love to the suffering person.
[/quote]
I don't think Euthenasia is illegal because theists don't agree with it. It's the problem of deciding who needs it, who should decide and its propensity for corruption. There will never be agreement, people will be getting murdered while others are still suffering because of disagreement. Would you like to play a pseudo god and be one who decides who lives and who dies, I wouldn't! It's a mine field of problems even in the atheist viewpoint.

[quote]Just because they don't believe in eternal goodness outside of this life doesn't mean they're not worth arguing with.[/quote]
Maybe I missed something! Who said or inferred otherwise? I don't believe I could ever change the view of an atheist, but I would certainly always where possible give it a good try.

[stevil]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1320954885' post='2334423']
I don't think Euthenasia is illegal because theists don't agree with it. It's the problem of deciding who needs it, who should decide and its propensity for corruption. There will never be agreement, people will be getting murdered while others are still suffering because of disagreement. Would you like to play a pseudo god and be one who decides who lives and who dies, I wouldn't! It's a mine field of problems even in the atheist viewpoint.
[/quote]
The suffering patient, the head doctor, and a psychologist

[MithLuin]

Euthenasia would often be a decision that is made by next of kin, not the patient themselves. That is currently how decisions about removing people from life support and discontinuing treatment go. If the patient does not qualify for hospice and wishes to end his or her own life (but is not actually...dying), it is generally called assisted suicide.

There is a difference between allowing someone to die (hey, we're all going to die someday....) and actively killing a person. There is a huge opportunity for abuse if you are allowed to 'kill off' patients who are not actually dying. I think euthanasia flies in the face of the medical profession.

But back to parasites.

[Vincent Vega]

Of all of the compelling reasons for atheism, this is not among them.

[stevil]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1320996829' post='2334797']
Of all of the compelling reasons for atheism, this is not among them.
[/quote]
There is only one compelling reason for Atheism.
Disbelief in the stories/evidence for Theism, non acceptance for the requirement to choose faith without evidence.

[Aloysius]

indeed, you would tell the suffering person that their suffering had no ultimate meaning, and they should alleviate it by death. that's sort of my whole point summed up in a nutshell then. to the atheist, suffering has no ultimate meaning (outside of this life at least), and therefore on that premise creatures like parasites are bad and evil. if suffering has ultimate meaning, particularly out of this life ultimate meaning, then parasites are not something which are bad or evil, because the suffering they cause as part of the suffering and hardship caused by the whole of the fallen world are good for us in the light of eternity.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1320999697' post='2334798']
There is only one compelling reason for Atheism.
Disbelief in the stories/evidence for Theism, non acceptance for the requirement to choose faith without evidence.
[/quote]
Hm. No.

[stevil]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1321001514' post='2334803']
indeed, you would tell the suffering person that their suffering had no ultimate meaning, and they should alleviate it by death.
[/quote]
I would never suggest that a person should end their life. That decision is theirs to make, I am not in their shoes.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1321001514' post='2334803']
to the atheist, suffering has no ultimate meaning (outside of this life at least), and therefore on that premise creatures like parasites are bad and evil.
[/quote]
Suffering is to be avoided, unless the subject chooses it as a means to an end. e.g. A dancer may endure much suffering through years of training to become an elite dancer.
I do not condone forcing suffering on others, I would not love an entity that would choose to force suffering onto any animal (humans included).
The vast majority of Atheists do not believe in evil.
Alternative terms would be detrimental or undesired.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1321001514' post='2334803']
if suffering has ultimate meaning, particularly out of this life ultimate meaning, then parasites are not something which are bad or evil, because the suffering they cause as part of the suffering and hardship caused by the whole of the fallen world are good for us in the light of eternity.
[/quote]
Hard to understand this view/concept. I would be interested to hear how a Christian explains that suffering during life benefits an entities afterlife. I would also be interested to know how a Christian has knowledge with this regard, is it specifically stated in your scripture or does your Church organisation teach this opinion to you?

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

couldn't be bothered to check for which post i just tried to quote and something wen't wrong... TAB(being myself) is an omnivore not a carnivore. And without horrible bugs how would we figure out how to fix the bugs that are bugging without utterly exterminating them, the agricultural scientists and medical practitioners wouldn't have work to do. ,without nature in all it's beauty and and occasional terribleness what on gods green earth would david attenborough have to do for work ?

God bless you all

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1320912186' post='2334208']
Atheists tend to be tolerant of people regardless of their level of intelligence. The best way to conquer your enemy is to make them your friend. If that is not possible it is then best to avoid them unless they present a physical threat.
In general Atheists are very law abiding citizens, they realise that this life is their only life and they don't want to waste it in prison. For an understanding of the consequenses of Atheism one only has to look towards the trends of secular law. Law not based on religious belief becomes instead a law based on much discussion and thought, an inclusive law that looks to represent the diversity of people within society. It is our aim not to repress, but to embrace diversity and incorage individualism whilst also setting ground rules to promote a functioning society.

Anyway, I only brought up the quote as it was posted in an earlier post on this thread, it is actually a very strong reason why I sotpped reading the bible. Firstly I am not looking for god, but I was interested in the Christian Mythology, so I started to read, but found the begining of the bible quite silly and getting to the quoted statement, quite sexist, encouraging of torture and punishing people for deeds performed not by them but others. I found this a terrible message and hence stopped reading.

I think this derail has gone on long enough, sorry to the original poster. Please get back to god's plan of intentionally creating organisms to attack, cripple and maim, human beings.
[/quote]

And i'm sure you understand some or most of the moral code of the law in the (for wan't of a better word) west,comes from the holy bible.

god bless you stevil

[stevil]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1321009733' post='2334817']

And i'm sure you understand some or most of the moral code of the law in the (for wan't of a better word) west,comes from the holy bible.

god bless you stevil
[/quote]
I would disagree, Just because there is some commonality (e,g, thou shalt not kill) this does not mean that the law was made because of the statement in the bible. Common sense would suggest that we shouldn't go around killing each other.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1320861463' post='2333817']
The Atheist message to the world is tolerance and love.
[/quote]
Proudly intolerant and hateful atheists everywhere resent that. When it suits you atheism is highly general ("it's just a lack of belief in gods"), but at other times atheism has specific values and beliefs? I've not read the discussion passed this post so I don't expect to be contributing to the discussion, just trying to be a smart asss. You mean that your particular worldview, which happens to be atheistic, values tolerance and love. Don't be so exclusive in using that term as plenty of angry, emo, teenage death metal fans around the world will take offense.

[Aloysius]

okay, subtract the term "evil" but leave the term "bad". I assume you're okay with things being bad or good. although, L_D's point is very valid, there would indeed be atheists who have no problem with the term "evil", it's not all about you particularly.

"forcing suffering" is one way to put it, I put it is allowing suffering, which again as I say, is something which is valuable.

there's a couple different ways to explain why suffering is so good and beneficial for us. it is similar to the concept of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger", except that even if it does kill you, it makes you stronger in the face of it. a person who has been through suffering is usually a better person for it, and that carries over into the afterlife. like I said before, avoiding suffering is perfectly good and okay, but it will inevitably come into people's lives, and there's a reason the fallen world has that type of suffering through it: because it is redemptive of our bad tendencies, our attraction to sin and evil, and again, it makes us stronger. it builds us up out of our weaknesses, when properly interpreted. and it unites us to Christ's suffering.

where does this understanding come from? first, from the scriptures-- it is the Genesis account of the fall. why do death and suffering enter the world? because of the weaknesses of Adam and Eve, not as some arbitrary punishment, but as a prescription for betterment; this is seen all through the old testament and is culminated in the Gospel, with the greatest act of redemptive suffering there is. it's the teaching of scripture and the teaching of the Church (without the teaching of the Church, the interpretation of scripture can go in all sorts of directions, including your personal interpretation of just how silly the Genesis account is. you wouldn't even need the Church, though, to realize it doesn't mean quite what you think it does, you could even go to Jewish exegesis that understands the semitic messages... if you're interested in Christian or Judeo-Christian "mythology", you probably should do something more than just pick up a Bible and try to read through it IMO, cause that's not the type of book it was ever intended to be)

anyway, I don't expect you to entirely get this, it's something that definitely wouldn't make sense without belief in an afterlife. but I'd encourage you, if you do want to understand our "mythology" and cosmology, to look at it in its own context, as a way in which suffering is explained and experienced. the fact is there is suffering, and those of us who believe in a benevolent God believe that it has meaning, and many have experienced it as meaningful; when faced with suffering, a Christian does not despair, but offers it up for the redemption of their souls and of other souls, especially the souls in purgatory

[stevil]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1321024519' post='2334896']
Proudly intolerant and hateful atheists everywhere resent that. When it suits you atheism is highly general ("it's just a lack of belief in gods"), but at other times atheism has specific values and beliefs? I've not read the discussion passed this post so I don't expect to be contributing to the discussion, just trying to be a smart asss. You mean that your particular worldview, which happens to be atheistic, values tolerance and love. Don't be so exclusive in using that term as plenty of angry, emo, teenage death metal fans around the world will take offense.
[/quote]
Yes, you are right.
There are no specific rules or teachings to say that an Atheist must be tolerant and loving.
However, in my opinion it is an accurate generalisation. In discussion with Atheists they are by and large tolerant of diversity with regards to race, culture, gender, sexual orientation, religious beliefs, ...
Some do get anti religion but that is based on the perception that religion is a threat where religion looks to take choice away e.g. outlaw homosexuality, outlaw gay marrage, outlaw contraceptives, outlaw abortion, outlaw euthanasia, outlaw other religion, force a specific religion into school...
Thoses anti religion people are generally OK with religious people who do not look to force their values on others.

But regardless of teachings and scripture all world views have people that are contrary to what we think of our own world view. You may take the stance that if they don't behave in such a way that they aren't really belonging to your worldview, but that doesn't stop them self classifying that way.

[stevil]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1321027430' post='2334924']
there's a reason the fallen world has that type of suffering through it: because it is redemptive of our bad tendencies, our attraction to sin and evil, and again, it makes us stronger. it builds us up out of our weaknesses, when properly interpreted. and it unites us to Christ's suffering.[/quote]
So lets put this into a real world perspective.
If a loved one of yours, lets say your Mother gets cancer and is dying in hospital in a slow excrusiating death or maybe a daughter falls into a boiling mud pool and comes out alive but her skin falls off in a melted mess and she is in agony and suffers through the rest of her life due to being deformed. Or maybe a new born baby, your loved, innocent baby gets this horrid paracite burrowing through its eyes, inflicting pain and blinding it.
Would you then pray to your god and give thanks for the wonderful lesson being taught to your loved one. Feel warm fuzzies that it is your loved one being touched by your beloved god and honoured by learning such a valuable lesson? God is great and wonderful and your family is blessed.

Edited November 11, 2011 by stevil

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1320861463' post='2333817']
The Atheist message to the world is tolerance and love.
[/quote]

side rant

why are some atheists so quick to claim camaraderie with other atheists but when it's all love and peace but not in other situations.

Example:
person: Atheism can lead to terrible belief systems and the most inhumane slaughterings, like we saw with Stalin, Pol Pot etc.
Atheist: Well atheists have no common book or belief system, the only thing that unites us is our non-belief in a deity blah blah blah. We bear no relation to these tyrants other than lack of belief in a god.

at a later date:

person: atheists have no grounds for morality
atheist: [b]the[/b] message of atheism is love and tolerance/atheism is about coexisting peacefully

or even more ridiculously I've heard "[b]real[/b] atheists don't believe in murder/oppression of the poor/any other ails of society"


Here's the thing, you can't disassociate from atheism when it's convenient for you, and then at other times act like there's this one glorious banner of freethought and world peace that represents all atheists [b]when you've already admitted the only thing you categorically have in common is lack of belief in God. [/b]It's disingenuous or downright naive to think that atheists cannot be as big a prick as the next guy of any religion. Outside from your insular little internet world of enlightened freeloving atheists communities is a real world with harsh realities where these broad generalizations don't stand up.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1321038294' post='2335014']Feel warm fuzzies that it is your loved one being touched by your beloved god and honoured by learning such a valuable lesson? God is great and wonderful and your family is blessed.
[/quote]
Perhaps life is not meant to be all about warm fuzzies.