Forgiveness

[southern california guy]

What is required for forgiveness and what does it really mean?

Let's say that I punched "Jamie" in the face. "Jamie" could say that we just had a misunderstanding and forgive me. And then I would be forgiven right? But he would have to be the one that did the forgiving right? If "Jamie" refused to forgive me and "Nihil" told me that he forgave me for punching "Jaime" in the face, then I wouldn't really be forgiven would I?

You see where I'm going, right? If "Jamie" refused to forgive me could I circumvent him and say a prayer to Jesus and ask Jesus to forgive me -- for what I had done to "Jaime"? Or would "Jaime" still have to be the one who did the forgiving?


(The following is taken out of context and perhaps only has its proper meaning in the context of the Disciples who had received the Holy Spirit, but I still hear it tossed around a bit)

[b]John 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.[/b]


Does the forgiveness have to come from the one you wronged? I know that from an atheist point of view that is the only thing that would make sense. From a religious one would it be argued that the "forgiveness" could have to do with your salvation? Can you be forgiven in a different way by god when the person doesn't forgive you? Can you go to confession and get "forgiven" for something that the person you wronged didn't forgive you for?

-------------

The Protestants argue that Christians can still get divorces so long as they ask Jesus for "forgiveness" afterwards -- and I assume this means that they can then get remarried without committing adultery.

Let's say that a man, who was having an affair with his secretary, divorced his wife -- so that he could marry his secretary.

Neither his kids nor his ex-wife forgave him for the divorce. His wife had felt that when he married her he had made a commitment to her and the future kids to be there for her and the kids. She felt that she could depend on him and trust him. And she needed him to help raise the kids.

Could he circumvent her and the kids and get forgiveness from God -- or "Jesus" instead? Would his being "forgiven" mean that he was going to go to heaven. So he could argue that while his ex-wife and kids hadn't forgiven him.. god had? Does that make logical sense? I don't fully understand the Protestant argument.

Within the Catholic church do annulments consider forgiveness? They seem rather shallow and self-centered to me. "[b]I[/b] didn't really mean the vows when [b]I[/b] took them." "I didn't really want to have kids -- even though we had some.." "I felt pressured to marry her." "I didn't know all that marriage could involve before I got married..." What about the wife? What about the kids? What about the responsibilities? Aren't these the factors that make it adultery? Didn't he need to be forgiven? Or did annulling the marriage circumvent any need for forgiveness?

What if he got the marriage annulled but his wife and kids never forgave him? Within the viewpoint of the Catholic church does it matter? Is it believed that God forgave him for something that he had done to his wife and kids -- because the marriage wasn't "valid"? Or that there was no sin that needed to be forgiven?

I'm a little confused about when forgiveness is needed and when it isn't. If the wife and kids felt wronged by the divorce and desertion, but the husband didn't -- who is right? From an atheists position wouldn't you argue that the man had wronged his wife and kids when he divorced for the other woman and left. But the religious position can be different can't it?

I'm no super intellectual so I'm no expert writer but hopefully you can understand what I'm trying to ask.

----------------------

And the idea of "wrongs" and "forgiveness" can differ between atheists and religious. If you missed Mass an atheist would see that as no wrong requiring no forgiveness (Since the atheist views God as make believe). A Catholic would view the wrong as being between him and God, and ask God for forgiveness, right? And interestingly enough when viewed that way both the Catholic and the atheist would agree that if God was the one wronged -- than in praying to God you would actually be asking forgiveness from the one who was wronged.

If you were a Catholic priest, and you broke your vows so that you could leave and marry, an atheist would see it as a case where nobody was wronged. A Catholic would feel that God had been wronged and therefore the former priest should ask God for forgiveness.

And at least that makes logical sense compared to God "forgiving" wrongs committed against other people -- without those people forgiving. Like my punching "Jaime" in the face -- and then being forgiven by God.

Edited November 27, 2011 by southern california guy

[Deus te Amat]

/troll

[img]http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr279/erman3157/thatsfunny.jpg[/img]

/endtroll

[BigJon16]

[img]http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5asSgqecOMY/TbziKyjDY6I/AAAAAAAABRs/_v37WqZ18X8/Divine Mercy Clouds_thumb.jpg?imgmax=800[/img]

Enough said.

[southern california guy]

Com'on you guys give me some feedback. Tell me if my arguments are crazy or whatever they are.

[Nunsense]

I think you really don't have a very clear understanding of either forgiveness or annulments within the teachings of the Catholic church. Have you considered perhaps doing some kind of RCIA course for returning Catholics? There isn't much point in describing what atheists believe about either forgiveness or divorce since they don't have an organised teaching authority and each one of them probably has their own opinion about what constitutes forgiveness and whether or not divorce is acceptable.

I don't want to try to replace proper teaching authority for you but there are some things that could be addressed simply.
1) The Catholic Church does not allow divorce.
2) Annulment is NOT the same as divorce (not matter how much you try to make them the same)
3) The scripture you quoted is the basis for priests being allowed to hear Confession and give absolution.
4) You can forgive another person in your heart or not but the main benefit is to the one doing the forgiving, not the one being forgiven.
5) God's forgiveness is what is needed for salvation... hence the Sacrament of Reconciliation (and for this, conditions must be met)

To fully understand the faith, you might need to go a bit deeper than you have already. I strongly suggest further instruction in the faith either through a priest or course of study.

[Nihil Obstat]

I know a guy named Jamie, but I'm pretty sure you don't know him, and probably haven't punched him in the face.
However I might have, because he takes karate at the same place as me.

[Winchester]

[size=8]BOW TO YOUR SHINSEI![/size]

Edited November 27, 2011 by Winchester

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1322363138' post='2340982']
[size=8]BOW TO YOUR SHINSEI![/size]
[/quote]
[img]http://obit-mag.com/media/image/Bowing-Man.jpg[/img]

[Winchester]

[size=8]SWEEP THE LEG[/size][size=8]![/size]

[Winchester]

[media='']http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFlQNtL8F9s[/media]

[Lil Red]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1322362940' post='2340977']I think you really don't have a very clear understanding of either forgiveness or annulments within the teachings of the Catholic church. [/quote]
no poo, sherlock. and no matter how many times we try to explain it, he just keeps a'comin' back for more trollin'.

[BigJon16]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1322364270' post='2341007']
no poo, sherlock. and no matter how many times we try to explain it, he just keeps a'comin' back for more trollin'.
[/quote]

"They see me trollin', they hatin'..."

[southern california guy]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1322362940' post='2340977']
I think you really don't have a very clear understanding of either forgiveness or annulments within the teachings of the Catholic church. Have you considered perhaps doing some kind of RCIA course for returning Catholics? There isn't much point in describing what atheists believe about either forgiveness or divorce since they don't have an organised teaching authority and each one of them probably has their own opinion about what constitutes forgiveness and whether or not divorce is acceptable.

I don't want to try to replace proper teaching authority for you but there are some things that could be addressed simply.
1) The Catholic Church does not allow divorce.
2) Annulment is NOT the same as divorce (not matter how much you try to make them the same)
3) The scripture you quoted is the basis for priests being allowed to hear Confession and give absolution.
4) You can forgive another person in your heart or not but the main benefit is to the one doing the forgiving, not the one being forgiven.
5) God's forgiveness is what is needed for salvation... hence the Sacrament of Reconciliation (and for this, conditions must be met)

To fully understand the faith, you might need to go a bit deeper than you have already. I strongly suggest further instruction in the faith either through a priest or course of study.
[/quote]

Thank you. This is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. The argument about the forgiver getting the benefit is a very good one. Is the divorce followed by praying for forgiveness argument strictly a Protestant belief?

I was never confirmed. Despite my frustrations with the modern Catholic church I think I will go through RCIA and finally get confirmed.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1322362990' post='2340979']
I know a guy named Jamie, but I'm pretty sure you don't know him, and probably haven't punched him in the face.
However I might have, because he takes karate at the same place as me.
[/quote]

No I don't take karate. However I did take tae kwon do back when I lived near Sacramento.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1322365434' post='2341028']

No I don't take karate. However I did take tae kwon do back when I lived near Sacramento.
[/quote]
So presumably not in my city any time in the last ten years or so.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1322361147' post='2340947']
What is required for forgiveness and what does it really mean?

Let's say that I punched "Jamie" in the face. "Jamie" could say that we just had a misunderstanding and forgive me. And then I would be forgiven right? But he would have to be the one that did the forgiving right? If "Jamie" refused to forgive me and "Nihil" told me that he forgave me for punching "Jaime" in the face, then I wouldn't really be forgiven would I?

You see where I'm going, right? If "Jamie" refused to forgive me could I circumvent him and say a prayer to Jesus and ask Jesus to forgive me -- for what I had done to "Jaime"? Or would "Jaime" still have to be the one who did the forgiving?


(The following is taken out of context and perhaps only has its proper meaning in the context of the Disciples who had received the Holy Spirit, but I still hear it tossed around a bit)

[b]John 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.[/b]


Does the forgiveness have to come from the one you wronged? I know that from an atheist point of view that is the only thing that would make sense. From a religious one would it be argued that the "forgiveness" could have to do with your salvation? Can you be forgiven in a different way by god when the person doesn't forgive you? Can you go to confession and get "forgiven" for something that the person you wronged didn't forgive you for?

-------------

The Protestants argue that Christians can still get divorces so long as they ask Jesus for "forgiveness" afterwards -- and I assume this means that they can then get remarried without committing adultery.

Let's say that a man, who was having an affair with his secretary, divorced his wife -- so that he could marry his secretary.

Neither his kids nor his ex-wife forgave him for the divorce. His wife had felt that when he married her he had made a commitment to her and the future kids to be there for her and the kids. She felt that she could depend on him and trust him. And she needed him to help raise the kids.

Could he circumvent her and the kids and get forgiveness from God -- or "Jesus" instead? Would his being "forgiven" mean that he was going to go to heaven. So he could argue that while his ex-wife and kids hadn't forgiven him.. god had? Does that make logical sense? I don't fully understand the Protestant argument.

Within the Catholic church do annulments consider forgiveness? They seem rather shallow and self-centered to me. "[b]I[/b] didn't really mean the vows when [b]I[/b] took them." "I didn't really want to have kids -- even though we had some.." "I felt pressured to marry her." "I didn't know all that marriage could involve before I got married..." What about the wife? What about the kids? What about the responsibilities? Aren't these the factors that make it adultery? Didn't he need to be forgiven? Or did annulling the marriage circumvent any need for forgiveness?

What if he got the marriage annulled but his wife and kids never forgave him? Within the viewpoint of the Catholic church does it matter? Is it believed that God forgave him for something that he had done to his wife and kids -- because the marriage wasn't "valid"? Or that there was no sin that needed to be forgiven?

I'm a little confused about when forgiveness is needed and when it isn't. If the wife and kids felt wronged by the divorce and desertion, but the husband didn't -- who is right? From an atheists position wouldn't you argue that the man had wronged his wife and kids when he divorced for the other woman and left. But the religious position can be different can't it?

I'm no super intellectual so I'm no expert writer but hopefully you can understand what I'm trying to ask.

----------------------

And the idea of "wrongs" and "forgiveness" can differ between atheists and religious. If you missed Mass an atheist would see that as no wrong requiring no forgiveness (Since the atheist views God as make believe). A Catholic would view the wrong as being between him and God, and ask God for forgiveness, right? And interestingly enough when viewed that way both the Catholic and the atheist would agree that if God was the one wronged -- than in praying to God you would actually be asking forgiveness from the one who was wronged.

If you were a Catholic priest, and you broke your vows so that you could leave and marry, an atheist would see it as a case where nobody was wronged. A Catholic would feel that God had been wronged and therefore the former priest should ask God for forgiveness.

And at least that makes logical sense compared to God "forgiving" wrongs committed against other people -- without those people forgiving. Like my punching "Jaime" in the face -- and then being forgiven by God.
[/quote]

OK, there's a lot in here to digest, but I just wanted to start off by saying that sin hurts not only the people you hurt, but God as well. That is why we must seek forgiveness from God. Does that let us off the hook with the people we have hurt? No, it does not. Catholics believe that sacramental forgiveness does not erase the temporal consequences of sin. As far as we are able to, we must make amends. Example: Suppose Peter breaks Paul's car window out of malice. Peter goes to confession and receives absolution. He still must pay for Paul's window. In fact, the confessor may/should remind him of that.

I would have to read through the divorce part a few times to see what you are trying to ask, but as far as protestants (and this would not include all protestants, since there is no such thing as a unified protestant theology) saying that divorce and remarriage is just another sin to be forgiven, that would only be true if the remarried couple live as brother and sister; otherwise, each time they did the marital act, they would be committing adultery anew.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' timestamp='1322362102' post='2340962']
/troll

[img]http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr279/erman3157/thatsfunny.jpg[/img]

/endtroll
[/quote]
[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1322364270' post='2341007']
no poo, sherlock. and no matter how many times we try to explain it, he just keeps a'comin' back for more trollin'.
[/quote]

Get off the guy's case. It's a long road back for him; he has some questions and confusions about the faith - is he not one of the people we should be reaching out to? The "troll" commenst are uncalled for. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Especially you, Lil Red - you're a moderator, you're supposed to know better.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1322365306' post='2341025']
I was never confirmed. Despite my frustrations with the modern Catholic church I think I will go through RCIA and finally get confirmed.
[/quote]

Best wishes. Too bad you didn't live in the Chicago area, I'd be willing to be your sponsor.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Norseman82

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1322369532' post='2341080']

Get off the guy's case. It's a long road back for him; he has some questions and confusions about the faith - is he not one of the people we should be reaching out to? The "troll" commenst are uncalled for. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Especially you, Lil Red - you're a moderator, you're supposed to know better.
[/quote]
I like that +1 votes are public now.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1322364270' post='2341007']
no poo, sherlock. and no matter how many times we try to explain it, he just keeps a'comin' back for more trollin'.
[/quote]


Forget to have your morning coffee today, Red? A tad hostile to poor lil me here.

I'm just trying to do the Christian thing by answering the unasked questions. He may be a troll, but he is also a very lonely guy who is looking for something and he isn't quite sure what. Yeah, he can try one's patience, but then just leave him to those who don't mind making the effort. When I am tired, I will hand it over to someone else who isn't.

---

As for you SCG - I think you really need to relax a little and stop trying to figure it all out. God is never going to fit into your little box, and neither is the Church. From what you have posted over a long time, your main focus is to find a woman (who must be a virgin who has never been married - even if that marriage has been annuled) and thinks you are marriage material because you have a house etc etc. Why you look here is beyond me because you aren't really a Catholic at all (yet) and this place is full of very traditional and faithful Catholics who are going to be more interested in your faithfulness to the Magesterium than your material abundance (hopefully).

Yes, by all means, go through RCIA (but a one to one with your priest would be good too) and get confirmed, but hopefully not just as a way to meet girls. Start really looking for God and maybe you will find what you're really looking for!!

And stop fretting over the whole annulment thing - you don't have to understand all of the Church's teachings. You just have to follow them. And if you really want to understand, then you are not going to find the answers on an Internet forum. The Church has had thousands of years to work out her teachings and to build upon them, start a course in theology if you are that interested.

Red is right in that you ask questions over and over again but don't appear to take in anything that has been said. Read back over some of the old posts and try to understand what has been told to you already. Otherwise, you really are wasting your time (those of us who choose to respond to you are responsible for our own time). And if none of the answers here satisfy you, then maybe you are asking in the wrong place? Go find a priest.