Believing In Santa

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Maximilianus' timestamp='1323079587' post='2344836']

This and the fact that the modern incarnation of Santa no longer resembles St. Nicholas. To me he has come symbolize the commercialism and secularism that has crept into Christmas.
Anyways it's St. Nicholas Day eve, make sure you put your shoes out. All the folks that post regularly in the bad Catholics thread are getting coal, the people that post in the good Catholic thread are getting candy, the people that post in both are getting fruitcake.
[/quote]
Now I'm sorry I post in both. Wish I had just stuck with the Bad Catholics thread. At least coal is useful.

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323093522' post='2344857']
I believe the only reason children like Santa is b/c he brings presents, and usually in abundance. I believe, especially in our US culture today, Christmas is more Santa-centered than Christ-centered, i.e. Santa=Christmas. The vast majority of parents attend Christmas Eve Vigil b/c Christmas day must be free to enjoy all the great stuff Santa has brought w/o the interruption of going to Mass. I told my wife a long time ago that Santa is unnecessary and is counter-productive in participating in the true meaning of Christmas. She was skeptical, but recently admitted that it was b/c of how integral Santa was in her childhood, and found it very hard to not have such for her children. And now she wants to go Santa free. She has seen our 5 year old obsessed with Santa and presents. It is amazing how much he is into Santa, when he only watches TV about 1 hour a week, and only Santa is in the commercials. We do read the story of Saint Nicholas and have the DVD. We celebrate the Feast of Saint Nicholas with treats in our shoes and that’s when we do the stockings. We will have gifts on Christmas morning, but not from Santa, they will be from each other. We give gifts in honor/celebration of the greatest gift of all, Jesus Christ, our Savior.

We are not going out of our way to seek and strike out Santa. We simply do not bring him into our home. We only address it with our children when the children ask questions or talk about Santa. I am currently reflecting and praying on the best way to explain how Saint Nicholas has mutated into Santa.
[/quote]
All we ever got from Santa was one "big" gift (and by big, I mean a board game or a book, not like a stereo or something crazy) and our stockings, which mainly consisted of candy and a few other small odds and ends, and we loved Santa, so I don't think it's just a greed thing. But then, that may have to do with the fact that, we didn't really have Christmas over-done, anyway. And we spent more time arguing about who got to give the first gift than about receiving gifts at all.

That being said, I know my parents didn't really want to do the santa thing, but felt like they had no choice because of the decisions relatives had made, and not knowing how to address it without us telling other kids or feeling bad because we weren't good enough for Santa to come, or something. And I know my mom really regretted it after my sister found out and was pretty much devastated, and my dad was out of town on business, so my mom had to deal with it all herself. And we don't really plan on doing Santa, either. My brother and SIL already don't. That was partly because in my SIL's childhood, Santa brought all the toys and "razzle dazzle" gifts, while Mom and Dad gave the lame gifts, like clothes.

[Basilisa Marie]

St. Nick's day is the best. I'm in grad school and my mom still sends me a St. Nick's package.

[Papist]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1323095979' post='2344877']
Now I'm sorry I post in both. Wish I had just stuck with the Bad Catholics thread. At least coal is useful.


All we ever got from Santa was one "big" gift (and by big, I mean a board game or a book, not like a stereo or something crazy) and our stockings, which mainly consisted of candy and a few other small odds and ends, and we loved Santa, so I don't think it's just a greed thing. But then, that may have to do with the fact that, we didn't really have Christmas over-done, anyway. And we spent more time arguing about who got to give the first gift than about receiving gifts at all.

That being said, I know my parents didn't really want to do the santa thing, but felt like they had no choice because of the decisions relatives had made, and not knowing how to address it without us telling other kids or feeling bad because we weren't good enough for Santa to come, or something. And I know my mom really regretted it after my sister found out and was pretty much devastated, and my dad was out of town on business, so my mom had to deal with it all herself. And we don't really plan on doing Santa, either. My brother and SIL already don't. That was partly because in my SIL's childhood, Santa brought all the toys and "razzle dazzle" gifts, while Mom and Dad gave the lame gifts, like clothes.
[/quote]
That is what me and my wife want to do. Just do a few simple gifts, not the packed Toys R Us truck. As for family, I will not be able to say what I stated in my above post. They all will take it as a commentary of how I think they are doing/did it wrong. They will get a short and sweet version...then wait for them to ask questions.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Papist

[i<3LSOP]

I think that it's perfectly fine to lie to your child about Santa. It is so cute to see lil kids so excited and innocent about Santa and all. I don't think that it's a sin to tell them, but that you shouldn't tell them when they are to young. My brother ruined it for me when I was six, and my lil sis who is seven mostly believes. I knew a girl who's family told her three year old brother and he wouldn't believe that there wasn't a Santa. That was so sad. Basically I think that you should tell your child when they are emotionally ready if you know what I mean.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323099309' post='2344890']
That is what me and my wife want to do. Just do a few simple gifts, not the packed Toys R Us truck. As for family, I will not be able to say what I stated in my above post. They all will take it as a commentary of how I think they are doing/did it wrong. They will get a short and sweet version...then wait for them to ask questions.
[/quote]
I'm not really sure how my parents did it, if it was because we were not spoiled rotten or what, but I really hope my kids are like my siblings and I were, with as much excitement about giving things as about getting. And it's nice to know that my parents and my siblings won't be offended by us not wanting tons of material items for our kids for gifts. I really have no idea how my in-laws will react, though. I don't *think* they'll have a huge issue, but I never can tell with them. I definitely feel for the people whose extended families are completely unsupportive. I have a friend whose mother was upset when she asked that the kids not be given any more toys for Christmas (they have a ton already, it's not like the kids are deprived by any means!) and provided instead a list of educational "toys" and games and things like that.

[scardella]

I don't think anything is wrong with Santa Claus. I do think that moderation in gift giving for children is called for.

The key is to explicitly link this Santa Claus to Jesus. I don't think Santa is necessary, but so long as you recognize that these gifts are given in honor of Jesus' birth, then I don't think you'll have any problems.

My in-laws have a tradition of keeping the "Santa" gifts limited to 3, to remind the children of the gold, frankincense and myrrh (and to keep the holiday budget in balance). I think it's a wonderful way to still have the Santa tradition without it getting too out of hand.

I'm fishing for a quote here by GK Chesterton... found it:
"[b]Mr. [url="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_McCabe"]McCabe[/url] thinks me a slave because I am not allowed to believe in determinism. I think Mr. McCabe a slave because he is not allowed to believe in fairies."[/b]

[i<3franciscans]

I loved believing in Santa as a child. I treasure the memories of my siblings and I lying awake at night breathing silently hoping to hear Santa land on our roof. I wouldn't trade those nights for anything. And it did not take away from the religious side of Christmas a all. I remember as a child wishing Jesus a happy birthday countless times throughout the day.

Edited December 5, 2011 by i<3franciscans

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Maximilianus' timestamp='1323079587' post='2344836']

This and the fact that the modern incarnation of Santa no longer resembles St. Nicholas. To me he has come symbolize the commercialism and secularism that has crept into Christmas.
Anyways it's St. Nicholas Day eve, make sure you put your shoes out. All the folks that post regularly in the bad Catholics thread are getting coal, the people that post in the good Catholic thread are getting candy, the people that post in both are getting fruitcake.
[/quote]
I have gotten coal before. No biggie.

[i<3franciscans]

[quote name='Maximilianus' timestamp='1323079587' post='2344836']

This and the fact that the modern incarnation of Santa no longer resembles St. Nicholas. To me he has come symbolize the commercialism and secularism that has crept into Christmas.
Anyways it's St. Nicholas Day eve, make sure you put your shoes out. All the folks that post regularly in the bad Catholics thread are getting coal, the people that post in the good Catholic thread are getting candy, the people that post in both are getting fruitcake.
[/quote]
but I don't like fruitcake...

[Luigi]

Maximilianus said: "Anyways it's St. Nicholas Day eve, make sure you put your shoes out. All the folks that post regularly in the bad Catholics thread are getting coal, the people that post in the good Catholic thread are getting candy, the people that post in both are getting fruitcake."

I [i][b]love[/b][/i] fruitcake! Especially Trappist fruitcake. From Gethsemani or Ava.


And I do post on both boards.

[i<3franciscans]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1323106406' post='2344943']
Maximilianus said: "Anyways it's St. Nicholas Day eve, make sure you put your shoes out. All the folks that post regularly in the bad Catholics thread are getting coal, the people that post in the good Catholic thread are getting candy, the people that post in both are getting fruitcake."

I [i][b]love[/b][/i] fruitcake! Especially Trappist fruitcake. From Gethsemani or Ava.


And I do post on both boards.
[/quote]
you can have my fruitcake if you want.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1323089000' post='2344846']
We celebrate St. Nicholas Day and do stockings then. We then spread things out over the whole 12 days of Christmas, so we've not really discussed Santa.
[/quote]

that's kinda how we're hoping to do things

[GeorgiiMichael]

I think the problem with this thread, and despite a lack of any real hostility, I still think it's a problem, is that we are calling the Santa myth a lie, instead of...well... a myth. Myths don't need to be true to spread the Truth. And for children, a Santa figure is a great way to tell the Truth of the season of Christmas. It's not a lie, lying is everywhere and always wrong, it's an age appropriate myth used for the spreading of the Truth of the season.

I don't think it's a problem one way or the other. If some of you don't tell your kids about Santa, that's your prerogative, same with those who do tell your kids about Santa.

But please, let's avoid the use of the word "lie" because it isn't a lie.

And I hate to name drop (or position drop in this case) but this position is one that was distinguished for me by my professor of Moral Philosophy, who also happens to be one of the smartest priests I've ever met (Naval Academy, Rhodes Scholar, Oxford, etc). I say this not to tell you that you need to tell your kids about Santa, only to say that Santa isn't a lie, as this thread keeps saying.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='GeorgiiMichael' timestamp='1323110788' post='2344995']
I think the problem with this thread, and despite a lack of any real hostility, I still think it's a problem, is that we are calling the Santa myth a lie, instead of...well... a myth. Myths don't need to be true to spread the Truth. And for children, a Santa figure is a great way to tell the Truth of the season of Christmas. It's not a lie, lying is everywhere and always wrong, it's an age appropriate myth used for the spreading of the Truth of the season.

I don't think it's a problem one way or the other. If some of you don't tell your kids about Santa, that's your prerogative, same with those who do tell your kids about Santa.

But please, let's avoid the use of the word "lie" because it isn't a lie.

And I hate to name drop (or position drop in this case) but this position is one that was distinguished for me by my professor of Moral Philosophy, who also happens to be one of the smartest priests I've ever met (Naval Academy, Rhodes Scholar, Oxford, etc). I say this not to tell you that you need to tell your kids about Santa, only to say that Santa isn't a lie, as this thread keeps saying.
[/quote]

I'd give this props if I hadn't already spent my daily quota. I think you're right. The difference is that it only can become a lie depending on how you answer your kids when they ask you flat out about the existence of Santa. But including them in the myth of Santa isn't a lie. There're plenty of things that are part of the Christian tradition that are more myth than fact. Take St. Christopher, for example. Does that mean we should never speak of St. Christopher again or tell his story to children? Of course not. Must be believe that God created the world in a literal seven days exactly how it's portrayed in Genesis? No, we don't have to.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Basilisa Marie

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='GeorgiiMichael' timestamp='1323110788' post='2344995']
I think the problem with this thread, and despite a lack of any real hostility, I still think it's a problem, is that we are calling the Santa myth a lie, instead of...well... a myth. Myths don't need to be true to spread the Truth. And for children, a Santa figure is a great way to tell the Truth of the season of Christmas. It's not a lie, lying is everywhere and always wrong, it's an age appropriate myth used for the spreading of the Truth of the season.

I don't think it's a problem one way or the other. If some of you don't tell your kids about Santa, that's your prerogative, same with those who do tell your kids about Santa.

But please, let's avoid the use of the word "lie" because it isn't a lie.

And I hate to name drop (or position drop in this case) but this position is one that was distinguished for me by my professor of Moral Philosophy, who also happens to be one of the smartest priests I've ever met (Naval Academy, Rhodes Scholar, Oxford, etc). I say this not to tell you that you need to tell your kids about Santa, only to say that Santa isn't a lie, as this thread keeps saying.
[/quote]
I considered that, but I wonder about the mode of presentation. I won't argue that Santa Claus [i]could be[/i] an acceptable myth, but I do have an issue with that myth being presented [i]as truth[/i]. There is some moral difference, at least in my mind, between presenting a myth as a myth and presenting it as truth.
I am conflicted though because I do see some wiggle room.

[dominicansoul]

when you think about it, santa claus does exist, or we wouldn't be having this conversation....

(i just re-read, "Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus..")

[Papist]

Maybe I am too pragmatic or have some Vulcan in my blood. I just don’t get the Santa thing, the secular Santa not St. Nicholas.

Also, if you misspell Santa, who do you have?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323113911' post='2345030']
Maybe I am too pragmatic or have some Vulcan in my blood. I just don’t get the Santa thing, the secular Santa not St. Nicholas.

Also, if you misspell Santa, who do you have?
[/quote]
Sntaa?

[Papist]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323114203' post='2345033']
Sntaa?
[/quote]
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g4GvnHisCZ0/TZpxjtX4nsI/AAAAAAAAAac/wUjoqFdkOfE/s1600/2502-2659-large.jpg[/img]

[Nihil Obstat]

Also Taans.