How Many Of Us Want A Religion That Teaches Moral Limitations?

[southern california guy]

I almost have a hard time articulating this but how many of us WANT a religion that teaches moral limitations rather than a religion that is "tolerant", "accepting", and "respects" (approves of?) behavior like "living together" out of wedlock, promiscuity, homosexuality, and divorce and remarriage?

Without the moral limitations I almost feel like it's not even a religion. Especially if all that is taught are vague notions like "loving" everybody or "loving Jesus". I want to hear moral absolutes. I want to hear specific morality that I can actually apply to my life taught. I don't want to hear stuff like "Make Jesus the center of your life." or "Make Jesus the center of your marriage" because I don't really know what the hell that means -- it's just too vague and open to interpretation.

I want to hear stuff like "Practice celibacy until marriage." and "You need to make a real commitment to your wife -- and your future kids -- when you marry because a committed marriage will help your kids development and it will ultimately create balance moderation and happiness for both you and your wife." and "Homosexual behavior as well as other sexually perverted behavior does not lead to happiness and satisfaction in ones life. It is harmful and hurtful to people who practice it. A committed monogamous heterosexual relationship is the best."

It seems like the Christian religions are moving away from moral absolutes and trying to win everybody over. But it's not winning me over and I suspect that it doesn't win most people over. Do you guys agree?

[Jaime]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1323637280' post='2349257']


It seems like the Christian religions are moving away from moral absolutes and trying to win everybody over. But it's not winning me over and I suspect that it doesn't win most people over. Do you guys agree?
[/quote]

No. The Catholic Church has never moved away from moral absolutes. The Catholic Church has never taught moral limitations btw. Limitations are restrictive. What the Church teaches frees us.



Could you start some gardening threads now?

[Socrates]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1323637280' post='2349257']
I want to hear stuff like "Practice celibacy until marriage." and "You need to make a real commitment to your wife -- and your future kids -- when you marry because a committed marriage will help your kids development and it will ultimately create balance moderation and happiness for both you and your wife." and "Homosexual behavior as well as other sexually perverted behavior does not lead to happiness and satisfaction in ones life. It is harmful and hurtful to people who practice it. A committed monogamous heterosexual relationship is the best."[/quote]
Oh, you mean like the Catholic Church teaches?

[southern california guy]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1323637617' post='2349263']

No. The Catholic Church has never moved away from moral absolutes. The Catholic Church has never taught moral limitations btw. Limitations are restrictive. What the Church teaches frees us.



Could you start some gardening threads now?
[/quote]

Arguably the Catholic church (Pope John Paul II) loosened its position on divorce by making annulments easier. Yes people will argue that Pope John Paul II merely "Clarified" rather than "Changed" -- but things have changed.

And when I lived up in Washington state the Catholic church (Under Archbishop Hunthausen) started holding "Dignity" Masses for homosexuals.

Down here in Southern California a large percentage of the Catholics are hispanic and Mexican. And living together and having kids out-of-wedlock is very common for the Hispanic and Mexican Catholics. And I've seen Catholic classes held down here for "Married couples or couples who've lived together for more than five years".

But most of the changes aren't in official Catholic doctrine but rather the way that some of the Catholic priests choose to teach or interpret Catholic doctrine. And I often hear Catholics pushing for changes in the church in regards to issues like homosexuality. Really they would like to see the Catholic church take a position that [b][i]approves[/i][/b] of homosexual behavior.

I contend that there are a lot of old fashioned Catholics who like the older more "restrictive" church. And I'm pretty sure that you actually agree with me. I've seen you take some pretty conservative positions -- conserving the old original Catholic position -- that I agree with too. Perhaps we're arguing over semantics? In assuming personal responsibility we do restrict ourselves from specific destructive behavior, but at the same time our personal responsibility gives us freedom -- because we're not dependent on others to look out for us. We can look out for ourselves.

[Jaime]

[quote]Arguably the Catholic church (Pope John Paul II) loosened its position on divorce by making annulments easier. Yes people will argue that Pope John Paul II merely "Clarified" rather than "Changed" -- but things have changed.
[/quote]

There have been at least a dozen attempts to teach you the legitimate position of the Catholic Church on annulments. You REFUSE to accept it.

As far as the rest of it, so what? You mean to say there are people who claim to be Catholic and don't live according to Her teachings? Do you honestly think that is new? I'll give you a clue. It's been happening for 2000 years or so.

Here's my advice. You are way too interested in how others are screwing up and sinning. Focus on yourself and quit worrying about everyone else. You want to live by moral absolutes? Become Catholic, go to confession and stop speaking with an unpleasant disposition about the homosexuals, priests, mexicans,divorce, etc.


Live your life and assent your will to the Church.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1323640695' post='2349294']

There have been at least a dozen attempts to teach you the legitimate position of the Catholic Church on annulments. You REFUSE to accept it.

As far as the rest of it, so what? You mean to say there are people who claim to be Catholic and don't live according to Her teachings? Do you honestly think that is new? I'll give you a clue. It's been happening for 2000 years or so.

Here's my advice. You are way too interested in how others are screwing up and sinning. Focus on yourself and quit worrying about everyone else. You want to live by moral absolutes? Become Catholic, go to confession and stop speaking with an unpleasant disposition about the homosexuals, priests, mexicans,divorce, etc.


Live your life and assent your will to the Church.
[/quote]
Wish I could give this two props.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1323640695' post='2349294']

Here's my advice. You are way too interested in how others are screwing up and sinning. Focus on yourself and quit worrying about everyone else. You want to live by moral absolutes? Become Catholic, go to confession and stop speaking with an unpleasant disposition about the homosexuals, priests, mexicans,divorce, etc.

[/quote]

I wouldn't call it an unpleasant disposition. I would call it candor. I think that there are a lot of us who prefer the old-fashioned Catholic church. Quite honestly the Catholic priest and the Catholic church, here in Escondido, is very very good. And I think that good Priests attract big congregations. I think that most people prefer old-fashioned Catholicism. They just don't speak out as loudly as those who want change.

[Nihil Obstat]

Richard does have a point in that, while yes the Church obviously does teach all these things and more, you won't often hear that from the pulpit. Rare is the priest who will deny cohabitating or divorced and 'remarried' people Communion, or who will preach against artificial birth control, or who will denounce sodomy and the homosexual culture. SoCal, if I might be so bold, I think this is precisely why you have the problems you do with the Church. It's the same reason Catholic culture has become almost nil in the last fifty years. Our priests are scared of the laity, the laity aren't listening anyway, and in the end it's just a vicious cycle that leads to greater laxity, more lapsed Catholics, and greater evil.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323641412' post='2349301']
Richard does have a point in that, while yes the Church obviously does teach all these things and more, you won't often hear that from the pulpit. Rare is the priest who will deny cohabitating or divorced and 'remarried' people Communion, or who will preach against artificial birth control, or who will denounce sodomy and the homosexual culture. SoCal, if I might be so bold, I think this is precisely why you have the problems you do with the Church. It's the same reason Catholic culture has become almost nil in the last fifty years. Our priests are scared of the laity, the laity aren't listening anyway, and in the end it's just a vicious cycle that leads to greater laxity, more lapsed Catholics, and greater evil.
[/quote]

You're right that is what I was trying to say.

Ironically the Catholic priest here in town is one of the really good rare priests. I've tried other "Christian" churches, here in town, and I find myself drawn back to the Catholic church. And judging by size of the congregation I'm not unique.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323641412' post='2349301']
Richard does have a point in that, while yes the Church obviously does teach all these things and more, you won't often hear that from the pulpit. Rare is the priest who will deny cohabitating or divorced and 'remarried' people Communion, or who will preach against artificial birth control, or who will denounce sodomy and the homosexual culture. SoCal, if I might be so bold, I think this is precisely why you have the problems you do with the Church. It's the same reason Catholic culture has become almost nil in the last fifty years. Our priests are scared of the laity, the laity aren't listening anyway, and in the end it's just a vicious cycle that leads to greater laxity, more lapsed Catholics, and greater evil.
[/quote]


well the couple Masses i have been to(most in canada) were quite nice. the homily was generally on what needs to be done rather than just complaining about the problems. The one i remember was discussing a recent sex abuse scandal. but then i havent seen that many.

Again, depending on where you are im sure it could change, but it seems like the sins that dont affect most of the congregation are the ones most taught and most learned. possibly due to that fear you mentioned. for example, I have yet to meet many christians unaware of policy concerning homosexuals, but it is shocking how many are unaware of the sexual sins that they may be committing (fornication, bad stuff in marriage).

it seems many of us become experts in our neighbors shortcomings, while overlooking ours or explaining them away.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1323640695' post='2349294']

There have been at least a dozen attempts to teach you the legitimate position of the Catholic Church on annulments. You REFUSE to accept it.

As far as the rest of it, so what? You mean to say there are people who claim to be Catholic and don't live according to Her teachings? Do you honestly think that is new? I'll give you a clue. It's been happening for 2000 years or so.

Here's my advice. You are way too interested in how others are screwing up and sinning. Focus on yourself and quit worrying about everyone else. You want to live by moral absolutes? Become Catholic, go to confession and stop speaking with an unpleasant disposition about the homosexuals, priests, mexicans,divorce, etc.


Live your life and assent your will to the Church.
[/quote]

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1323642422' post='2349311']


well the couple Masses i have been to(most in canada) were quite nice. the homily was generally on what needs to be done rather than just complaining about the problems. The one i remember was discussing a recent sex abuse scandal. but then i havent seen that many.

Again, depending on where you are im sure it could change, but it seems like the sins that dont affect most of the congregation are the ones most taught and most learned. possibly due to that fear you mentioned. for example, I have yet to meet many christians unaware of policy concerning homosexuals, but it is shocking how many are unaware of the sexual sins that they may be committing (fornication, bad stuff in marriage).

it seems many of us become experts in our neighbors shortcomings, while overlooking ours or explaining them away.
[/quote]
the priest at my parish has been mentioning stuff like fornication; confession; etc. it's really amesome. and i think when he gets positive feedback, it encourages him.

[savvy]

My parish in Canada is very active. I don't know if it's because of the adoration chapel, that draws people in. We also have a vibrant youth ministry, with teens in church on a Saturday night. Our core team is also the youngest in Lifeteen history.

The men's club has men in church early in the morning on Saturday. Their wives have been stunned.

Yes, the priests can make a difference. But, so can the people. I noticed that these ministries took off because people decided to start them and to commit to them, instead of complaining about nobody doing anything.

Edited December 11, 2011 by savvy

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1323642422' post='2349311']


well the couple Masses i have been to(most in canada) were quite nice. the homily was generally on what needs to be done rather than just complaining about the problems. The one i remember was discussing a recent sex abuse scandal. but then i havent seen that many.

Again, depending on where you are im sure it could change, but [b]it seems like the sins that dont affect most of the congregation are the ones most taught and most learned[/b]. possibly due to that fear you mentioned. for example, I have yet to meet many christians unaware of policy concerning homosexuals, but it is shocking how many are unaware of the sexual sins that they may be committing (fornication, bad stuff in marriage).

[b]it seems many of us become experts in our neighbors shortcomings, while overlooking ours or explaining them away.[/b]
[/quote]

I highlighted the part I agree with the most. That's exactly it. It's easy to preach about sins that you can be relatively sure nobody has committed. A priest doesn't have to worry in the average parish if he talks about how corporate fraud and murder and racism are serious sins. Good chance it doesn't apply to a single parishioner. So they stick to that, and we're left with homilies that are not relevant.
At the end of the day, that's really no better than the Pharisee who thanked God in the temple that he wasn't so sinful as the tax collector beside him. We need to be that tax collector, not the Pharisee. One was sinful and asked forgiveness. The other was sinful and chose to not even see it.

[Papist]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1323640286' post='2349288']
Arguably the Catholic church (Pope John Paul II) loosened its position on divorce by making annulments easier. Yes people will argue that Pope John Paul II merely "Clarified" rather than "Changed" -- but things have changed.
[/quote]
Pope John Paul II did not making getting an annulment easier. Our culture not knowing the sanctity/meaning of marriage is. e.g There are persons that get married today with the intention to not have children. This is an impediment to a valid marriage, impediment never thought of 100 years ago.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323641412' post='2349301']
Richard does have a point in that, while yes the Church obviously does teach all these things and more, you won't often hear that from the pulpit. Rare is the priest who will deny cohabitating or divorced and 'remarried' people Communion, or who will preach against artificial birth control, or who will denounce sodomy and the homosexual culture. SoCal, if I might be so bold, I think this is precisely why you have the problems you do with the Church. It's the same reason Catholic culture has become almost nil in the last fifty years. Our priests are scared of the laity, the laity aren't listening anyway, and in the end it's just a vicious cycle that leads to greater laxity, more lapsed Catholics, and greater evil.
[/quote]
This is not my experience.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323645117' post='2349347']

This is not my experience.
[/quote]
That's very good. It's been my experience with every single priest in my diocese save the FSSP priest. I'm assuming the SSPX priests also wouldn't be that way, and I would like the believe the Ukrainian Catholic priest is good as well.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323645117' post='2349347']

This is not my experience.
[/quote]
Do the priests in your diocese withhold Communion from divorced and cohabitating couples, from pro-abortion politicians, from Masons, etc.? If so, which diocese do you live in? I want to be in a diocese that great.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1323642422' post='2349311']

.

it seems many of us become experts in our neighbors shortcomings, while overlooking ours or explaining them away.
[/quote]
Banged the nail right on the head. A guy says to priest. "I don't go to mass because there are too many hypocrites in the Church". Priest replies. "There's always room for one more." It's a LOL but very apt. The Churches responsibility is to teach what is right and wrong, but not to judge people and try to force them to comply. Recently some of our RCIA ladies had to have an interview for annulment issues. Such things worry me. God calls people to the Church, then we turn them away by being overly judgemental! Better to work out a solution so they can fit in with the rest of the sinners in the Church. My prayers were answered and the ladies are still with us.

[Papist]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323645707' post='2349358']
Do the priests in your diocese withhold Communion from divorced and cohabitating couples, from pro-abortion politicians, from Masons, etc.? If so, which diocese do you live in? I want to be in a diocese that great.
[/quote]
I do not know of any. But, I will say I do a poor job trying to find out who they are. Reason is I think that is misguided zeal. There is so much beauty and splendor in the Catholic Church for me to embrace and participate in that I do not have the time to be an investigative reporter looking for deficiencies of its members and clergy.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323646268' post='2349369']
I do not know of any. But, I will say I do a poor job trying to find out who they are. Reason is I think that is misguided zeal. There is so much beauty and splendor in the Catholic Church for me to embrace and participate in that I do not have the time to be an investigative reporter looking for deficiencies of its members and clergy.
[/quote]
Kind of burns me up when people like Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden talk about being "faithful Catholics", or the media describes them as devout, but by and large the response from many (of course not all) bishops is equivocal at best. When a bishop comes right out and says that a particular politician is not welcome to receive Communion in that diocese, it's newsworthy. I wish it were common enough that it wasn't even newsworthy anymore.
That said, it would be a bit of a stretch to call *any* Canadian politician pro-life. Conservatives have a majority, which is in a lot of ways carte-blanche to do whatever the heck they want, and they refuse even to mention the issue. It was brought up a grand total of once during the last election, and you should have seen the scramble to nuke the question...