St Christina The Astonishing Dec 15Th

[BarbTherese]

I do think that unusual types of behaviours in that they are not a common bonded social and cultural behaviour are far more acceptable and factored into common bonded social and cultural behaviour generally than they were previously. There is not the 'demand' there once was to conform socially as long as as one's behaviour is not offensive nor hurtful. I think this is really a good thing in that it does allow a person to relax into their uniqueness without outside pressures to conform to unwritten social expectations. A person today is free to flow from within, rather than to force upon oneself the expectations of others/forced submission to exterior pressure. We have greater freedom today it seems to me.

"Eccentric" is simply a 'tag' or noun to put a person into a social compartment with certain social expectations. When one uses the noun "eccentric" it is commonly understood what it means and what to expect.

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I think there are a lot of unknown saints - maybe we need to start a thread about them?

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[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1324085607' post='2352477']
We have greater freedom today it seems to me.

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Well, yes and no. Society accepts unusual and different behaviours today but religious orders certainly don't (at least the ones I have been in). One of my Prioresses told me that if she had a nun in her community who had ecstasies or did other unusual things, she would give her a good dose of castor oil!

Of course, a postulant or novice who doesn't 'fit in' to the community mold just gets asked to leave, but a fully professed sister has to be 'managed' a little differently. I used to wonder if that's why so many of the sisters at my last convent seemed to fall apart after final profession - they were pretending to be what they weren't for six years so that they could be accepted and then finally they were allowed to be themselves, but all those years of repression finally had their toll on their health. It was a very weird experience for me.

I like to think that their are really healthy religious communities out there (I'm speaking cloistered, the active ones seem to handle individuality a little better), but just the environment and the structure of the life means there are many pressures to conform.

This isn't a complaint, just an observation that perhaps today things aren't always as 'free' as they were in the days of St Teresa or St Mary Magdalene de Pazzi or St Christina in terms of allowing eccentricities?

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1324086471' post='2352482']
Well, yes and no. Society accepts unusual and different behaviours today but religious orders certainly don't (at least the ones I have been in). One of my Prioresses told me that if she had a nun in her community who had ecstasies or did other unusual things, she would give her a good dose of castor oil!

Of course, a postulant or novice who doesn't 'fit in' to the community mold just gets asked to leave, but a fully professed sister has to be 'managed' a little differently. I used to wonder if that's why so many of the sisters at my last convent seemed to fall apart after final profession - they were pretending to be what they weren't for six years so that they could be accepted and then finally they were allowed to be themselves, but all those years of repression finally had their toll on their health. It was a very weird experience for me.

I like to think that their are really healthy religious communities out there (I'm speaking cloistered, the active ones seem to handle individuality a little better), but just the environment and the structure of the life means there are many pressures to conform.

This isn't a complaint, just an observation that perhaps today things aren't always as 'free' as they were in the days of St Teresa or St Mary Magdalene de Pazzi or St Christina in terms of allowing eccentricities?
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I can only draw from my own experience and any sort of behaviour in a religious monastic community that marked one as 'different' was frowned upon. It was regarded as drawing attention to oneself. "Singularizing oneself" it was termed. One was expected to fit in with the existing community without any major type problems. Any behaviours that stood out were regarded as disrupting the flow of community life. I should imagine that if one experienced ecastasy and was asked to leave a community because of it, then I think I would regard it as God's Will. The "castor oil" comment brought a smile and I daresay if a good dose of castor oil did not 'cure' the ecstacy then it would have to be regarded as genuine and I tend to think that even then the person could be asked to leave. I think a person could have genuine mystical type phenomona and not necessarily a vocation to religious life, although I would think that religious life would be more comptabible for a mystic than life in the world. It is up to the superiors in the community who has a vocation to their life and who does not. The person needs to conform to the community and not the other way round. Conforming to the life without major problems probably is viewed as a sign of a true vocation to the life and community.

My own experience was that I did not fit in with the existing community - I was the real duck out of water and I felt uncomfortable, very uncomfortable and it was my decision to leave. My own experience was that I would have to turn myself inside out to conform to the community as it was and initial efforts robbed me of Peace sufficiently enough to warrant me leaving.

I think back in the days of St. Teresa and Magdalene da Pazzi in the 16th and early 17th centuries, mystical phenomena was rather common in religious houses - both genuine and false mysticism. It was more acceptable, accepted, and cultural back then in The Church. Reading the writings of St Teresa of Avila it seemed that she seemed to expect her nuns to experience unusual type mystical phenomena at points on the mystical way - and of course this is not necessary to the contemplative and mystical life. St Teresa herself, in fact, pointed out that such phenomena is very open to self deception and the deceptions of Satan and that it is a 'dangerous' path because of these facts and that the safest way is in love of neighbour, in focusing on love of neighbour. Of course, if God desires to send unusual mystical phenomena there is nothing really that the person can do but this may mean (not necessarily) a life of exclusion and suspicion - suffering and the cross. St Teresa herself was often quite tortured with doubts about the validity of her own unusual mystical phenomena.

Speaking with those who have left religious life post profession I think that many did turn themselves inside out to conform to the life and this had disastorous results for them later in the life. Some I have met were very bitter about their experiences. It takes I think spiritual maturity to know when the cross and acceptance of suffering is spiritually legitimate and when it is not.
[quote]Well, yes and no. Society accepts unusual and different behaviours today but religious orders certainly don't (at least the ones I have been in). [/Well, yes and no. Society accepts unusual and different behaviours today but religious orders certainly don't (at least the ones I have been in). [/quote]
I think this probably may still be the case in religious life. Society is now more accepting of 'the different' in some way - but it would not surprise me at all if this was not the case in religious life. It is very important that a person in a community is not disruptive of the flow of community life which in monastic life anyway is living shoulder to shoulder 24 hrs daily more or less.

Edited December 17, 2011 by BarbaraTherese

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[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1324089407' post='2352517']

I think this probably may still be the case in religious life. Society is now more accepting of 'the different' in some way - but it would not surprise me at all if this was not the case in religious life. It is very important that a person in a community is not disruptive of the flow of community life which in monastic life anyway is living shoulder to shoulder 24 hrs daily more or less.
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Well, speaking as a member of a very large family (6 brothers and 2 sisters) I think that living together and being an individual aren't mutually exclusive. Growing up wasn't easy but we still accepted that each one of us was different in personality and attitude and outlook and responses. I think a truly healthy community can accept differences in its members and still remain a cohesive and supportive and loving environment.

I think your point about not fitting into a particular community though makes great sense - that is like not fitting into a particular family - but I would also expand this to include not fitting into a particular Order. I have tried 4 Carmels and after failing to fit in (either my choice or theirs) I wanted to give up but my SD told me that he strongly feels I have a religious vocation but wanted me to try Benedictines instead of Carmelites as they are more accepting of individuals (in his opinion). I am following his advice and my time with a community in Jan-Feb will certainly help me determine if this is true for myself. I still love Carmel and am in touch with my previous ones all the time, but I am praying that I will finally find a place where I do 'fit in'.

[BarbTherese]

There were five of us in my family with me the eldest and only female. I have always thought my parents did outstandingly well as parents since the five of us grew to be unique and different individuals - and while we fought like cats and dogs as children and into our teens, we are now very close. We were a little family community as children and teens and my parents were Graced and particuarly skillful as parents in that they kept Peace reigning in the family. I must admit however that there were times when the family situation relationship-wise would have meant a totally disrupted religious community. In religious life, perhaps especially monastic since one lives so closely, the Peace of the community is very important - and every member contributes to that overall Peace. In my day, Peace in the commmunity was paramount and one's individuality came secondary to that. One was expected to make sacrifices to retain Peace and loving Charity with all. This was great experience for me because I do believe that contributing to Peace in the world in whatever community one finds oneself involved is paramount, making sacrifices if necessaryin the interests of Peace and Charity with all - without surrendering essentials. God has created us the individuals we are and if in expressing our individuality we sacrifice Peace and Charity with all for the sake of that individuality, we have things very wrong somewhere I think.

Since your spiritual director feels you have a religious vocation, I would be guided by that for sure! Leaving a religious community either through one's own volation, or asked to leave, is painful - although I would imagine being asked to leave is exceptionally so. It would be heartbreaking. I can understand your attachment to Carmel and I love the life too, although never called to it. God's blessings on your Jan-Feb exploration of Benedictine life.
Quite a few of our saints have been asked to leave a religious community - some of them several times - for one reason or another. Later they found their calling and in religious life. And even if we had not one saint who had done so, no reason why one cannot strive with God's Blessings to establish the first - a trail blazer with God's Grace who never inspires desires He cannot fulfill. I am a great fan of Little St Therese and her spiritual thinking and theology was remarkable and new for her day. What a trail blazer God made her!

For me, I think my experiences in monastic life were an excellent preparation for the life I now live although had anyone told me I had a calling to this life back when I was convinced I had a religious vocation, I would have thought them very wrong, very wrong! My imagination back then told me that I could only be happy in religious life. Peace and Joy in this life was not an event it was a journey.

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[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1324095731' post='2352574']
There were five of us in my family with me the eldest and only female. I have always thought my parents did outstandingly well as parents since the five of us grew to be unique and different individuals - and while we fought like cats and dogs as children and into our teens, we are now very close. We were a little family community as children and teens and my parents were Graced and particuarly skillful as parents in that they kept Peace reigning in the family. I must admit however that there were times when the family situation relationship-wise would have meant a totally disrupted religious community. In religious life, perhaps especially monastic since one lives so closely, the Peace of the community is very important - and every member contributes to that overall Peace. In my day, Peace in the commmunity was paramount and one's individuality came secondary to that. One was expected to make sacrifices to retain Peace and loving Charity with all. This was great experience for me because I do believe that contributing to Peace in the world in whatever community one finds oneself involved is paramount, making sacrifices if necessaryin the interests of Peace and Charity with all - without surrendering essentials. God has created us the individuals we are and if in expressing our individuality we sacrifice Peace and Charity with all for the sake of that individuality, we have things very wrong somewhere I think.

Since your spiritual director feels you have a religious vocation, I would be guided by that for sure! Leaving a religious community either through one's own volation, or asked to leave, is painful - although I would imagine being asked to leave is exceptionally so. It would be heartbreaking. I can understand your attachment to Carmel and I love the life too, although never called to it. God's blessings on your Jan-Feb exploration of Benedictine life.
Quite a few of our saints have been asked to leave a religious community - some of them several times - for one reason or another. Later they found their calling and in religious life. And even if we had not one saint who had done so, no reason why one cannot strive with God's Blessings to establish the first - a trail blazer with God's Grace who never inspires desires He cannot fulfill. I am a great fan of Little St Therese and her spiritual thinking and theology was remarkable and new for her day. What a trail blazer God made her!

For me, I think my experiences in monastic life were an excellent preparation for the life I now live although had anyone told me I had a calling to this life back when I was convinced I had a religious vocation, I would have thought them very wrong, very wrong! My imagination back then told me that I could only be happy in religious life. Peace and Joy in this life was not an event it was a journey.
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It may be that I do not have a religious vocation, but there is no way to know that without trying. Sometimes I have wonderd if I am being 'stubborn' or 'persistent' but the only way for me to determine that is to work with SD who isn't affected no matter where the answer lies.

I have been living the hermit life since I left the last Carmel, although I did have to work outside the home for about 4 months recently to earn money. Now I am working from home again and can schedule my work around prayer (and phatmass ) and this suits me better and is more monastic in nature.

And to me there is a difference between peace in the community through adapting and adjusting to each other's God given differences and peace in the community through suppression of individuality - it isn't the same kind of peace (external only) and leads to some of the problems I have seen in older nuns who have been repressed for most of their lives and resent it or don't know how to deal with the feelings it brings up in them. I have seen many vices arises as a result of this denial of self, some of them worse than a little disagreement between sisters that is discussed and resolved. I am not saying that nuns should therefore say everything they feel (no one should do this) or that they shouldn't attempt to put others first (everyone should) but that there is a balance to be found that is both healthy and spiritual in nature. That is why people admire someone like St Teresa so much - not just for her mysticism (which not everyone can relate to) but because she was herself.

[BarbTherese]

Prior to entering monastic life in my forties, I had lived alone for quite a few years and I loved the quiet and silence. When I first walked through that cloister door, our novice mistress warned me that I would find the silence the hardest to deal with; however, I found that the silence and quiet of living alone was more intense than the silence and quiet on a monastic cloister where one is aware of others around. Living alone, one does not have this awareness which intensifies (or it has for me) the silence and quiet of a life alone. For me, a life alone is vastly different experience, vastly different, to monastic life. I found monastic life, in comparison, quite noisy, cluttered! There is, of course, more freedom to set up a schedule reflecting a monastic schedule if one lives alone. However, I have a philosophy that if God wanted me to live a monastic schedule, then I would be in monastic life either as a religious or perhaps a Third Order. My daily schedule is very much up to Divine Providence, while basically and aspiringly, if possible, it is a monastic type schedule. But if something else intervenes, then that becomes my prayer. Monastics are called by God and affirmed by The Church to live a monastic prayer schedule, however as a lay person living alone to speak for myself personally, I neither have this call nor affirmation. This is not at all to state that a lay person who lives alone may experience a different sort of call to my own - and please God that they will. I hurt in spiritual straitjackets. My own experience of monastic life was that I needed to pour myself into a spiritual straitjacket. This is nothing against religious life per se, but it does indicate I did not have a vocation to the life. When God calls, He provides.

All sorts of doubts and wonderings can enter in and especially perhaps if one is still discerning one's lifetime vocation. Working with a spiritual director is the very best of moves and to be guided by him or her for sure.
I think that we have to be ourselves, because if we are not then we are alienated from our selfhood and hence to some degree or other from God. However, our selfhood is marked by original sin and a 'leaning' as it were to what is not virtue, what is not of God and The Holy Spirit. The call from God to our selfhood is with His Grace to live a life of virtue and this may mean going against what self wants and desires. Personally, I dont think that this in the main should be overly forced and arduous. The life of virtue is a growth process and perhaps the hardest part for a person who does aspire to a life of virtue in its fullest sense and also possibly the most important part, is to accept oneself as imperfect along with one's imperfections and with Peace and a humble heart. To sight things with a certain clarity and Peacefully and humbly. What was overly forced and arduous this year, may be easy and unreflected in the main next year - God Willing. It is all up to Grace and The Holy Spirit and how He leads one. Be this as it may, at times one has to do the hard thing and what is difficult and arduous. Sensitivity to The Holy Spirit informs. Today's O Antiphon asks for Wisdom and knowledge.

And always to my mind working with a spiritual guide is the very best of moves and simply because, for one, we never see ourselves subjectively as clearly as a Grace inspired person does objectively.

I read somewhere that true mystics are the most down to earth of people. St Teresa of Avila was most certainly that - down to earth and very practical. She viewed life with an earthy practicality with a delightful sense of the funny. Mystical phenomena can be a God sent 'side effect' of mysticism, it is not mysticism per se itself. St Teresa did comment that very often mystical type phenomena is sent by God to strengthen weakness, to encourage the person along the mystical way. Unity with God is something totally foreign to ordinary human experience and unlearning ordinary human experience as the sum total of experience and learning the way of God can be a very difficult path I should imagine. Hence the two Nights of St. John of The Cross. I think it is at the end of The Fifth Mansion that St Teresa comments that if the person knew the suffering that lay ahead, they would not have the courage to proceed.

[quote]there is a balance to be found that is both healthy and spiritual in nature.[/quote]

Amen!