You Cannot Truly Love Until You Love Yourself.

[ironmonk]

[b]You cannot truly love until You Love Yourself.[/b]

Many times, from many people, I have heard "You cannot truly love until you love yourself".

Why hasn't anyone asked where this "great and insightful wisdom" comes from? These people that preach this philosophy, if we can call it that, are trying to appear to be deep thinkers. Are they really?

To answer that question we must take a closer look at what makes people happy and what makes a healthy society.

When we look at the beginning of written history we see men trying to answer the questions of happiness and the meaning of life. Great philosophers pondered these very topics for years. Philosophy is the love (Philo) of wisdom (sophy). What wisdom is there about love? What is love?

All we have to do to see the teachings of some of the earliest civilizations is to look to the Greek myths. The Greek myths taught lessons. There was a Greek God, Narcissus. He loved himself. He fell in love with his own reflection in a pool. He languished beside the pool, dying either from starvation or self-love. Narcissisticism is a disorder that gets it's name from this mythological Greek God. The lesson taught was that self love is bad and one can say that it is not true love.

The Christian has even better resources to know what love is and is not...

Love is...
[b]1 Corinthians 13:4 [/b]
Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
[b]5 [/b]it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
[b]6 [/b]it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
[b]7 [/b]It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
[b]8 [/b]Love never fails.


Love does not seek it's own interests, but in the thinking of self love, it does.

Self love is putting oneself above others. Self love is the seed of evil. It is through self love that we have so many people in our society that do not care about those people who have nothing. From the fountain of self love springs greed, malice, jealousy and envy.

Self love has never been taught to any healthy society in the past. We see it preached against throughout written history. Only today and the last few years has it been such topic. Those in the lime light preach it fervently, such as Oprah. Self love breeds selfishness and greed. Self love makes one a lover of the world, not of God. We see famous people teaching that happiness comes from looking good and treating yourself. Happiness actually comes from helping out others who would be worse off without you. Selfless accomplishment is what makes a happy person.

So we really cannot call "self love" a philosophy because it is not wise to self love and it is not love. Self love does not require deep thinking at all. Self love is shallow thinking. It is narcissistic. It is a basic instinct of every animal. It does not require much thought to love oneself. Deep thought leads people to loving others not themselves.

True love and being able to love comes from putting others first. Doing for others. People have a need to be needed and wanted. When we do for others and put other people's wants and needs above our wants and needs, then we are needed, then we are truly loving towards others. Only then do we find true love.



God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited May 2, 2004 by ironmonk

[RandomProddy]

I read the title and was about to rattle off an instant reply disagreeing with the title but i read your post and saw you disagreed too. Good lad

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='May 2 2004, 04:11 PM'][b]You cannot truly love until You Love Yourself.[/b]

Many times, from many people, I have heard "You cannot truly love until you love yourself".

Why hasn't anyone asked where this "great and insightful wisdom" comes from? These people that preach this philosophy, if we can call it that, are trying to appear to be deep thinkers. Are they really?

To answer that question we must take a closer look at what makes people happy and what makes a healthy society.

When we look at the beginning of written history we see men trying to answer the questions of happiness and the meaning of life. Great philosophers pondered these very topics for years. Philosophy is the love (Philo) of wisdom (sophy). What wisdom is there about love? What is love?

All we have to do to see the teachings of some of the earliest civilizations is to look to the Greek myths. The Greek myths taught lessons. There was a Greek God, Narcissus. He loved himself. He fell in love with his own reflection in a pool. He languished beside the pool, dying either from starvation or self-love. Narcissisticism is a disorder that gets it's name from this mythological Greek God. The lesson taught was that self love is bad and one can say that it is not true love.

The Christian has even better resources to know what love is and is not...

Love is...
[b]1 Corinthians 13:4 [/b]
Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
[b]5 [/b]it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
[b]6 [/b]it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
[b]7 [/b]It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
[b]8 [/b]Love never fails.


Love does not seek it's own interests, but in the thinking of self love, it does.

Self love is putting oneself above others. Self love is the seed of evil. It is through self love that we have so many people in our society that do not care about those people who have nothing. From the fountain of self love springs greed, malice, jealousy and envy.

Self love has never been taught to any healthy society in the past. We see it preached against throughout written history. Only today and the last few years has it been such topic. Those in the lime light preach it fervently, such as Oprah. Self love breeds selfishness and greed. Self love makes one a lover of the world, not of God. We see famous people teaching that happiness comes from looking good and treating yourself. Happiness actually comes from helping out others who would be worse off without you. Selfless accomplishment is what makes a happy person.

So we really cannot call "self love" a philosophy because  it is not wise to self love and it is not love. Self love does not require deep thinking at all. Self love is shallow thinking. It is narcissistic. It is a basic instinct of every animal. It does not require much thought to love oneself. Deep thought leads people to loving others not themselves.

True love and being able to love comes from putting others first. Doing for others. People have a need to be needed and wanted. When we do for others and put other people's wants and needs above our wants and needs, then we are needed, then we are truly loving towards others. Only then do we find true love.



God Bless,
ironmonk[/quote]
[quote][b]True love and being able to love comes from putting others first. Doing for others. People have a need to be needed and wanted. When we do for others and put other people's wants and needs above our wants and needs, then we are needed, then we are truly loving towards others. Only then do we find true love.[/b][/quote]



[color=red]AMEN IRONMONK!!![/color]

[ironmonk]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='May 2 2004, 05:17 PM'] I read the title and was about to rattle off an instant reply disagreeing with the title but i read your post and saw you disagreed too. Good lad [/quote]
Got you to read it, didn't it

What prompted this was Oprah spreading this lie on TV this AM and getting into a disagreement with my mother-in-law over it.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Lil Red]

very awesome, ironmonk!

[Mickey's_Girl]

Ironmonk--

I'm with you on Oprah! :-)

There is, of course, Jesus' commandment to "love your neighbor as yourself". I think to be able to do that, one must have a healthy understanding of what Jesus means here. He puts loving God first in that verse. God comes first. Then we are to love our neighbor as ourselves: we are all created in the image of God, and Jesus died for all of us, so we are all of equal worth, and must realize that, and act accordingly.

I know many people who "put others first" but who hate themselves, and I don't think they are healthy. However, Oprah's philosophy is STILL wrong, because it's SELF (ha ha)-sufficient. God gives us proper perspective on who we are. The "it's all about me" attitude is just plain wrong; however, an "I'm a useless piece of trash" attitude is also wrong. Both, actually, focus on the self (as I think C.S. Lewis says somewhere...perhaps Mere Christianity?).

Good post, Ironmonk!

MG

[Livin_the_MASS]

Dont forget this one

[b]1 John 5: 20-21[/b]

"If anyone says, 'I love God,' but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. This is the commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother."

God Bless
Jason

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Mickey's_Girl' date='May 2 2004, 05:38 PM'] Ironmonk--

I'm with you on Oprah! :-)

There is, of course, Jesus' commandment to "love your neighbor as yourself". I think to be able to do that, one must have a healthy understanding of what Jesus means here. He puts loving God first in that verse. God comes first. Then we are to love our neighbor as ourselves: we are all created in the image of God, and Jesus died for all of us, so we are all of equal worth, and must realize that, and act accordingly.

I know many people who "put others first" but who hate themselves, and I don't think they are healthy. However, Oprah's philosophy is STILL wrong, because it's SELF (ha ha)-sufficient. God gives us proper perspective on who we are. The "it's all about me" attitude is just plain wrong; however, an "I'm a useless piece of trash" attitude is also wrong. Both, actually, focus on the self (as I think C.S. Lewis says somewhere...perhaps Mere Christianity?).

Good post, Ironmonk!

MG [/quote]
That is a good point, but I think that Jesus said that because many people were putting themselves above others. He was not saying to love ourselves. The most basic instinct is to "get ours" before someone else does... Jesus was telling people to put others first.

We should put others first, and loathe the parts of ourselves that keep us from Christ.

We must hate that part of us that puts the beam in our eye.

To know love, we must love others. To have the fullness of love, we must not love ourselves. We must always take what is least desireable, allowing others to have the better part of the deal... only then will we immitate Christ.

Christ is God, He came to earth and served all men. Christ is above all men. For Him to serve all men shows that we should serve all men.

There is no such thing as self love because love is not concerned with self. Love is concerned with others.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[CreepyCrawler]

well speaking from experience, if we don't love ourselves (not in a narcissistic way, but a healthy Godly way), we'll spend our time trying to be loved and validated by others and not really loving them. i agree with you but i also agree with the statement that you disagree with (but i don't agree with oprah's interpretation of it). i think if you don't like yourself, it makes you more self-centered b/c you need other people to love you and that's what you're after, not total self-denial and love of other. hmmm... does that make sense?

[Dave]

[quote name='CreepyCrawler' date='May 2 2004, 08:56 PM'] well speaking from experience, if we don't love ourselves (not in a narcissistic way, but a healthy Godly way), we'll spend our time trying to be loved and validated by others and not really loving them. i agree with you but i also agree with the statement that you disagree with (but i don't agree with oprah's interpretation of it). i think if you don't like yourself, it makes you more self-centered b/c you need other people to love you and that's what you're after, not total self-denial and love of other. hmmm... does that make sense? [/quote]
Yup, I agree.

There's a difference in loving yourself narcissitically and loving yourself the way God wants you to.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='CreepyCrawler' date='May 2 2004, 08:56 PM'] well speaking from experience, if we don't love ourselves (not in a narcissistic way, but a healthy Godly way), we'll spend our time trying to be loved and validated by others and not really loving them. i agree with you but i also agree with the statement that you disagree with (but i don't agree with oprah's interpretation of it). i think if you don't like yourself, it makes you more self-centered b/c you need other people to love you and that's what you're after, not total self-denial and love of other. hmmm... does that make sense? [/quote]
It makes sense, but I disagree. We will not spend our time trying to be loved and validated by others... this is a farce that modern psychology wants people to believe. This is relying on ourselves and not God... The devil moves society slowly, not to fast for us to notice. He has used our own reasoning against us from the beginning with Eve.

To love oneself we must focus on ourselves... to be self focused is not love.

Love is selfless - "it does not seek its own interests".

To love self is to seek own interests. Love does not do that.

The saints prove it. Pio, Escriva, Francis, etc...

There is no need for self love.

We know that God (Father, Son & Holy Spirit), Mary, all the angels and saints love us. When we live the way God wants us to, this not only means following His rules, but also the way He wants us to think, then there is no need for self love. There is no room for self love, it is a myth brought on by worldly psychiatrists of the past century.

We are not to worry. We are to totally rely on God, not any man... including ourselves. The minute we do, it starts to seperate us from God.

When we focus on others and suffer for others... then we can love. Everything for a healthy and happy life is found in Christ's teachings. No where does it teach that we need self love. Nor do the saints that even spoke with Christ and Mary say such that anyone needs self love(St. Pio)... St. Escriva implies the opposite.

When we help other and put them first, we will feel all the love we think we need to feel from people.

God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited May 3, 2004 by ironmonk

[CreepyCrawler]

i disagree but i think i have a lot of issues that make me not be able to fit into the ideal situation that i feel like you're describing.

[XIX]

My initial reaction is to say that we can't properly love ourselves until we love others. But we can love ourselves without being narsicisstic, I think. One of Satan's tricks is to convince us that we are worthless, that we should hate ourselves.

But the love that counts, agape, is giving oneself to God and to others, before yourself.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='XIX' date='May 2 2004, 11:36 PM'] My initial reaction is to say that we can't properly love ourselves until we love others. But we can love ourselves without being narsicisstic, I think. One of Satan's tricks is to convince us that we are worthless, that we should hate ourselves.

But the love that counts, agape, is giving oneself to God and to others, before yourself. [/quote]
I must be humble to all. I am less than all.

I should hate that part of me that keeps me from Christ - that part of me that makes me fall.

Self love is not needed.

We need nothing in this world. We need to live a supernatural life in Christ.

Self love is a falsehood. Christ nor any of His saints or Church has ever brought it up as something we need; the only reason why people think we need such things is because of the last 50 or so years and the godless psychiatrists that think the problems lie in such things... the problems lie in the fact that those people are godless... the problems lie in the fact that they believe that they are all they need.



St. Josemaria Escriva, The Way:

280 If you lose the supernatural meaning of your life, your charity will be philanthropy; your purity, decency; your mortification, stupidity; your discipline, a whip; and all your works, fruitless.

284 Ambition: to be good myself, and to see everyone else better than I.

287 Purity of intention. You will have it always if, always and in everything, you seek only to please God.

592 Don't forget that you are a... dust-bin. That's why if by any chance the divine Gardener lays his hands on you, and scrubs and cleans you, and fills you with magnificent flowers, neither the scent nor the colour that embellish your ugliness should make you proud.

Humble yourself: don't you know that you are the rubbish bin?


593 The day you see yourself as you are, you will think it natural to be despised by others.

594 You are humble not when you humble yourself, but when you are humbled by others and you bear it for Christ.

595 If you knew yourself, you would find joy in being despised and your heart would weep before honours and praise.

597 If you were to obey the impulses of your heart and the dictates of reason, you would always be flat on the ground, prostrate, like a filthy worm, ugly and miserable, before that God who puts up with so much from you.

599 You are dust — fallen and dirty. Even though the breath of the holy Spirit should lift you above all the things of the earth and make you shine like gold, as your misery reflects in those heights the sovereign rays of the Sun of Justice, do not forget the lowliness of your state.

An instant of pride would cast you back to the ground; and, having been light, you would again become dirt.


602 For all your learning, for all your fame, your eloquence and power, if you are not humble, you are worth nothing. Cut out, root out that self-complacency which dominates you so completely. — God will help you — and then you will be able to begin working for Christ, in the lowest place in his army of apostles.


609 Self-knowledge leads us by the hand, as it were, to humility.

611 Because of pride. — You were already becoming convinced that you, by yourself, were equal to anything. He left you for a moment, and you fell headlong. — Be humble and his extraordinary aid will not fail you.


612 Get rid of those proud thoughts: you are but the brush in the hand of the artist. And nothing more.

Tell me: of what use is a brush, if it won't let the painter do his work?

613 If you wish to be humble — you, who are so empty and self-satisfied — just consider these words of Isaias: you are 'a drop of water or dew that falls on the ground and is scarcely seen.'


[url="http://www.escrivaworks.org/book/the_way/contents"]http://www.escrivaworks.org/book/the_way/contents[/url]


God Bless,
ironmonk

[phatcatholic]

ironmonk,

i'm gonna have to disagree w/ u brother. you seem to equate self-love with self-centeredness or selfishness, but that's not what self-love [i]truly[/i] is. it will help here to provide my coneptualization of [i]true [/i]self-love:

[b]self-love:[/b] when man totally embraces the fact that he is made in the image in likeness of God, that through his baptism he has become a child of God, that b/c he is a child of God and was made by God, he has an inherent dignity as a person that no man, and not even himself, can take away, that he is loved by God for all eternity and that God will never turn his back on him.

that is self-love as i see it. and whereas you see "self-love" as inherently self-centered, i see self-love as inherently humble, inherently "others-centered." why? because, when a person finally grasps what it means to be a child of God, when he has self-love as i define it, then he cannot help but be humbled! he is in awe of the love and acceptance he has received by God even though he doesn't deserve it. it likewise compels him to love others as God has loved him.

"love one another as i have loved you."

yet, we cannot love others until we fully grasp the love that God has for us. i say self-love is recognizing and accepting the love that God has for us:

--recognizing, b/c many people don't even know that God loves them, nor the degree to which he loves them.

--accepting, b/c there are likewise many people who know of this love of God for his people, but do not accept it. they have been degraded, or have degraded themselves to a point that they truly believe that not even God would embrace them. how can man love others when he doesn't know God's love for himself?

put another way:

[b]self-centeredness [/b]is looking at one's own depravity and saying, "there is something wrong w/ me. i must increase myself"

[b]self-love[/b] is looking at one's own depravity and saying, "there is indeed something wrong w/ me.... but that is ok, b/c God loves me nontheless, and it is my duty to love others just the same."

hopefully i have made my point w/o being too repetitive. pax christi,
phatcatholic

[the lumberjack]

Oprah is a postmodern, treehugging, good for nothing but the corruption of man(and woman)kind...

"search for the answer within yourself"

what a load of carp.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 3 2004, 09:34 AM'] Oprah is a postmodern, treehugging, good for nothing but the corruption of man(and woman)kind...

"search for the answer within yourself"

what a load of carp. [/quote]
yeah, i can't stand that woman!

[traichuoi]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='May 3 2004, 08:12 AM'] ironmonk,

i'm gonna have to disagree w/ u brother. you seem to equate self-love with self-centeredness or selfishness, but that's not what self-love [i]truly[/i] is. it will help here to provide my coneptualization of [i]true [/i]self-love:

[b]self-love:[/b] when man totally embraces the fact that he is made in the image in likeness of God, that through his baptism he has become a child of God, that b/c he is a child of God and was made by God, he has an inherent dignity as a person that no man, and not even himself, can take away, that he is loved by God for all eternity and that God will never turn his back on him.

that is self-love as i see it. and whereas you see "self-love" as inherently self-centered, i see self-love as inherently humble, inherently "others-centered." why? because, when a person finally grasps what it means to be a child of God, when he has self-love as i define it, then he cannot help but be humbled! he is in awe of the love and acceptance he has received by God even though he doesn't deserve it. it likewise compels him to love others as God has loved him.

"love one another as i have loved you."

yet, we cannot love others until we fully grasp the love that God has for us. i say self-love is recognizing and accepting the love that God has for us:

--recognizing, b/c many people don't even know that God loves them, nor the degree to which he loves them.

--accepting, b/c there are likewise many people who know of this love of God for his people, but do not accept it. they have been degraded, or have degraded themselves to a point that they truly believe that not even God would embrace them. how can man love others when he doesn't know God's love for himself?

put another way:

[b]self-centeredness [/b]is looking at one's own depravity and saying, "there is something wrong w/ me. i must increase myself"

[b]self-love[/b] is looking at one's own depravity and saying, "there is indeed something wrong w/ me.... but that is ok, b/c God loves me nontheless, and it is my duty to love others just the same."

hopefully i have made my point w/o being too repetitive. pax christi,
phatcatholic [/quote]
[quote]Whether self-love is the source of every sin?
Objection 1. It would seem that self-love is not the source of every sin. For that which is good and right in itself is not the proper cause of sin. Now love of self is a good and right thing in itself: wherefore man is commanded to love his neighbor as himself (Lev. 19:18). Therefore self-love cannot be the proper cause of sin.

Objection 2. Further, the Apostle says (Rm. 7:8): "Sin taking occasion by the commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence"; on which words a gloss says that "the law is good, since by forbidding concupiscence, it forbids all evils," the reason for which is that concupiscence is the cause of every sin. Now concupiscence is a distinct passion from love, as stated above (3, 2; 23, 4). Therefore self-love is not the cause of every sin.

Objection 3. Further, Augustine in commenting on Ps. 79:17, "Things set on fire and dug down," says that "every sin is due either to love arousing us to undue ardor or to fear inducing false humility." Therefore self-love is not the only cause of sin.

Objection 4. Further, as man sins at times through inordinate love of self, so does he sometimes through inordinate love of his neighbor. Therefore self-love is not the cause of every sin.

On the contrary, Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xiv, 28) that "self-love, amounting to contempt of God, builds up the city of Babylon." Now every sin makes man a citizen of Babylon. Therefore self-love is the cause of every sin.

I answer that, As stated above (75, 1), the proper and direct cause of sin is to be considered on the part of the adherence to a mutable good; in which respect every sinful act proceeds from inordinate desire for some temporal good. Now the fact that anyone desires a temporal good inordinately, is due to the fact that he loves himself inordinately; for to wish anyone some good is to love him. Therefore it is evident that inordinate love of self is the cause of every sin.

Reply to Objection 1. Well ordered self-love, whereby man desires a fitting good for himself, is right and natural; but it is inordinate self-love, leading to contempt of God, that Augustine (De Civ. Dei xiv, 28) reckons to be the cause of sin.

Reply to Objection 2. Concupiscence, whereby a man desires good for himself, is reduced to self-love as to its cause, as stated.

Reply to Objection 3. Man is said to love both the good he desires for himself, and himself to whom he desires it. Love, in so far as it is directed to the object of desire (e.g. a man is said to love wine or money) admits, as its cause, fear which pertains to avoidance of evil: for every sin arises either from inordinate desire for some good, or from inordinate avoidance of some evil. But each of these is reduced to self-love, since it is through loving himself that man either desires good things, or avoids evil things.

Reply to Objection 4. A friend is like another self (Ethic. ix): wherefore the sin which is committed through love for a friend, seems to be committed through self-love.
[/quote]

I totally agree with PhatCatholic here...

but i also agree with IronMonk...

there are two types of self-love:
1. Well Ordered self-love
2. Inordinate self-love

well ordered love is what PhatCatholic is talking about and it is right and natural whereas inordinate self-love is what IronMonk is talking about which leads to contempt of God thereby causing sin...

[traichuoi]

this is too good to not add in here...by the way, i'm getting these quotes from NewAdvent.org

[quote](1) Love of Self

St. Gregory the Great (Hom. XIII in Evang.) objects to the expression "charity towards self", on the plea that charity requires two terms, and St. Augustine (De bono viduitatis, xxi) remarks that no command was needed to make man love himself. Obviously, St. Gregory's objection is purely grammatical; St. Augustine's remark applies to natural self-love. As a matter of fact, the precept of supernatural love of self is not only possible or needed, but also clearly implied in Christ's command to love our neighbour as ourselves. Its obligation, however, bears in a vague manner on the salvation of our soul (Matt., xvi, 26), the acquisition of merits (Matt., vi, 19 sqq.), the Christian use of our body (Rom., vi, 13; 1 Cor., vi, 19; Col., iii, 5). and can hardly be brought down to practical points not already covered by more specific precepts.
[/quote]

[phatcatholic]

traichuoi..............you have elucidated the fundamental distinction

thanks