Celibate Priests

[the lumberjack]

Christ didn't say, "all those who wish to preach my word, must be celibate"

The disciples understood Jesus' teaching on marriage and divorce clearly; perhaps it is not a commitment to be entered into quickly or lightly. Jesus recognizes that celibacy is good for some, for He who is able to accept it (such as Paul, 1 Corinthians 7:7-9). Eunuch was used figuratively for those who voluntarily abstain for marriage; it didn't necessarily mean a biological unity.

Paul spoke of celibacy...but wasn't he himself part of the sanhedrin? and didn't you have to be married to be part of it?

I'm just wondering why the Catholic Church mandates that all thier priests be celibate, when God makes it more than clear that it is okay to be married.

I mean, wasn't Peter married?

God bless.

[Livin_the_MASS]

Matthew 19:12: speaks of priests being celibate.

"Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; [b]some, because they have renounced marriage [u]for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.[/u] [u]Whoever can accept this ought to accept it."[/b][/u]

God Bless
Jason


I guess you missed this?

[the lumberjack]

anyone who wants to answer can do so whenever they please.








and Jason...no I did not miss that...the reply to that was in my first post.

but thanks for playing anyways...I'm sure we have some lovely parting gifts for you.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 3 2004, 04:09 PM'] anyone who wants to answer can do so whenever they please.








  and Jason...no I did not miss that...the reply to that was in my first post.

but thanks for playing anyways...I'm sure we have some lovely parting gifts for you. [/quote]
Thanks bro!

I think, well I know that Scripture answers the question, if you choose to see it or not is up to you!


In my prayers
God Bless
Jason

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 3 2004, 03:02 PM'] I'm just wondering why the Catholic Church mandates that all thier priests be celibate, when God makes it more than clear that it is okay to be married. [/quote]
Celibacy among priests is a discipline, not a doctrine. There are rites within the Church that allow it.

[Aloysius]

it's always been a very revered thing to be a priest and be celibate, for the reason in the verse Jason mentioned. however, it has not always been MANDATED. there have always been some, but way back when the Latin Rite decided to make it an actual formal discipline. notice how the Latin Rite is the largest Rite of the Catholic Church today? Celibacy in the priesthood has helped the Church's success! the Eastern Rites have some married priests and some celibate priests. no one after becoming a priest has ever been able to marry, though, because Jesus' call of the Apostles clearly gives them the vocation to be seperated from the world so once you've become a priest youre too far seperated to be able to marry.

but it could always be changed if the Hierarchy so willed, and ultimately if God so willed. but celibacy in the priesthood has always been a blessing with GOOD FRUITS by which we judge it and decide to continue it.

if the Church decided so, she could allow the Latin Rite to ordain married men. She could never, however, allow any Rite to marry ordained men

Edited May 3, 2004 by Aloysius

[the lumberjack]

so dust, and al...are you guys saying that its not absolutely necessary to be celibate and be a priest?

and a small...side question...(seriously, no attack)... could this be part of the reason a lot of those priests have done what they did?

and Jason...Christ said, Whoever can accept, can accept it if they want...if not, then there would cease to be people on the earth...[quote]12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it[/quote] and conversely, he who is not able to receive it, doesn't have to, right? I mean, Christ isn't just talking about priests here...

so how is this verse applied to priests?

[Aloysius]

no, the cause of the sex abuse is the state of the society from which the priests came. married protestant ministers have a high rate of abuse too. they also have a high rate of divorce. don't take that as an attack either, though, it saddens me too.

the abuse crises is throughout all professions, including protestant ministers and Catholic priests. there was just a scandal in our Church because the Hierarchy didn't deal with it right.


anyway, the Church reserves the right to bind and loose disciplines upon our distinct way of expressing the one Truth which she preaches. In the Latin Rite (the largest rite of the Church) she has bound that all priests must be single when ordained and thus be locked into a single state of life. In the Easter Rites, she has always allowed for married men to be ordained. she has, however, also encouraged single men being ordained and called to celibacy. so if she wanted to loose it in the Latin Rite changing the distinct sense the Latin Rite has of having celibate priests who devote their whole selves to God for the sake of the kingdom into the other sense that comes in the Eastern Rites of a priest who can relate to married people, she can. Once a single man is ordained, it is absolutely necessary for celibacy.

The Church is basically harvesting vocations, and she decided in the west to harvest only those who are to be celibate for the sake of the kingdom. it was her call as to who she wanted to be a priest, and she wanted those people who "are able to recieve it"

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 3 2004, 03:18 PM'] so dust, and al...are you guys saying that its not absolutely necessary to be celibate and be a priest? [/quote]
Right. But if you wanted to become a priest in the Latin rite, then it is necessary (although, there have been acceptions made for Anglican priests who converted).

And I don't think it has anything to do with the scandal. A married priest who takes a vow of celibacy (excluding his wife, of course), in my opinion, is more likely to break that vow than a single priest--for the simple fact that they are continually engaged in the sexual act, as opposed to all together quiting. You can relate it to an alcoholic being able to resist getting drunk if they never touch a beer, as opposed to the alcohol resisting getting drunk while having a beer a few times a week.

That's what I think anyway--maybe a phsycologist could give a better answer.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote][b]PASTORAL VISIT IN AUSTRALIA

HOMILY OF JOHN PAUL II

Melbourne (Australia), 28 November 1986[/b]


6. Our commitment to celibacy, dear brothers, is a positive expression of a special capacity to love which frees us to be fully at the service of the Church. As the Second Vatican Council says: "It simultaneously signifies and stimulates pastoral charity and is a special fountain of spiritual fruitfulness on earth... [b]Through celibacy observed for the sake of the Kingdom of heaven, priests are consecrated to Christ in a new and distinguished way. They more easily hold fast to him with undivided heart. They more freely devote themselves in him and through him to the service of God and people".[/b]

[b]When we promise to be celibate, we do so freely and out of a conviction that God is offering us this gift a charismatic gift which he does not give to everyone[/b], a gift which does not detract from the beauty or goodness of marriage but which highlights a love specifically directed to God and his people. At the same time, we priests know that we are not just receiving a gift; we are also giving a gift. We are offering the gift of our whole self to Christ and the Church, a gift freely and consciously and gratefully offered. And this gift, like Christ’s gift of himself, requires sacrifice.

The promise of celibacy is permanently binding. We say that we will be faithful for ever in celibate love. But it is not a gift that is made once and for all as one might donate a large sum of money. It is a gift that is made over and over again; it must be continually renewed. The generosity which prompted our lifelong promise must be kept alive day in day out, through prayerful union with Christ and a constant desire to offer loyal service to the Church. Not only must we avoid impurity; we must also avoid greed and selfishness, and whatever else might weaken our commitment to love Christ with an undivided heart.[/quote]

More info go to this website [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/homilies/1986/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_19861128_seminaristi-melbourne-australia_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...stralia_en.html[/url]

Another one:

[quote][b]Celibacy: Fidelity to one’s

priestly identity



Dominic Tang Yee-ming

Archbishop of Canton[/b]



[b]A priest’s commitment is a response to a call from the Lord. The Lord himself did not marry. He gave himself totally to his people. [u]It is in this way that the priest imitates the Lord.[/b][/u] I realize that there are those in the Church today who find this type of celibate commitment difficult, some say even impossible. Perhaps we should learn a lesson from the Chinese Communists. During the Cultural Revolution in China, many of the clergy were forced into marriages. This was one way the Communists attacked the Church and its ministers. They did not understand celibacy, belittled it and wanted to do away with it. There were priests who got married. However, over the years, the Communists have come to realize that Catholics will not accept these married priests as their ministers. They strongly oppose having any Catholic priest who is married to act as their spiritual leader. I do not believe that they are passing personal judgement on these priests, but what they are saying, it seems to me, is that they want celibate priests who can dedicate their whole lives to the Lord and to his people. No other commitment will do. I witnessed many cases of infidelity to celibacy in my long years of pastoral service. It is not to make any judgement on the persons involved, but it is sad to say that most of them did not remain faithful to their Christian life. Some wanted to convert but they were hindered by their ‘wives’ and not a few even lost their faith in the end. I cite two examples that are common knowledge in China. In Shanghai, a married priest wanted to say Mass in the church. The Catholics would not permit him to do this and took him off the altar. In Kunming, a bishop got married and was going to say a public Mass. Local Catholics heard of this and publicly advertised the fact. The bishop did not say Mass. This opposition coming from the Catholic community has forced the Communist authorities to change their policy. [b]This is not easy for them to do. They have had to admit that only unmarried priests can be ordained to serve these communities. They do this not out of any admiration of the celibate state as such but to preserve harmony in the communities.[/b][/quote]

More on this go here [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_fide_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega...93_fide_en.html[/url]


[quote][b]The CCC[/b]

1579 [b]All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate "for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."[/b]70 Called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord and to "the affairs of the Lord,"71 they give themselves entirely to God and to men. Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church's minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God.72[/quote]


If you want to read the whole thing go to this website [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P4X.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P4X.HTM[/url]

If you really want to look into it go here [url="http://vatican.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmFind.exe?query=Celibate+Priests+&CFGNAME=MssFindEN.cfg&en=x&x=17&y=9"]Celibate Priests[/url]

God Bless
Jason

[theculturewarrior]

[quote]and a small...side question...(seriously, no attack)... could this be part of the reason a lot of those priests have done what they did?[/quote]


:angry: Just for the record the incidence of priestly abuse is the same as the general population. And protestants have had similar scandals. And so has public school (who have also been guilty of massive cover ups.)

If you really want to make the United States a liberal, secular wasteland, please, buy into this garbage. (You will make our liberal secular press very happy.)

Edited May 3, 2004 by theculturewarrior

[ericLTcore]

As dUSt stated, celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine, and could technically change in the future. Personally, I think it's logical for priests not to marry since they, in effect, are marrying the Church (traditionally referred to as the bride of Christ, whom the priest emulates in his ministry). To be a married priest would theoretically suggest a priest would have two brides. How could a priest effectively split his fatherly duties between his parish family and his personal family, and do either justice?

[Livin_the_MASS]

When the priest is standing at the altar especially during the Eucharistic lituragy and in the confessional he stands [b]"In the person of Christ"[/b]. To me if you take celibacy away from the priesthood it is taking Christ Himself away, because the priest is the one who most represents Christ, Christ did not marry, nor should the priest.

If you can accept it awesome, those know who can, I've herd stories, if you agree with being married and becoming a priest, [b]my 2 cents is big no,no! [/b]Become a deacon! I might one day.

See I had this strong calling after I got married and I thought I might of missed my call to the priesthood, so I looked into becoming a deacon, well they told me you have to be 30 years old and not have to many little ones I think? It's been awhile. St. Paul also wrote some where I'll have to look it up but when ever God calls you stay in that state you are in when your called. It would be a sin for me to leave my wife and kids to go into the woods and live the life of a monk! I have to find my calling in other ways through my marriage.

Much love Pham
Jason

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Yeah, I personally don't think a priest can do his duty to the fullest if he has a family.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[b]1 Corinthians 7: 32-35[/b]

[b]I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord.[/b]

But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,

and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction.


[b]1 Corinthians 7: 17-24[/b]

Only, everyone should live as the Lord has assigned, just as God called each one. I give this order in all the churches.

Was someone called after he had been circumcised? He should not try to undo his circumcision. Was an uncircumcised person called? He should not be circumcised.

Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing; what matters is keeping God's commandments.

Everyone should remain in the state in which he was called.

Were you a slave when you were called? Do not be concerned but, even if you can gain your freedom, make the most of it.

For the slave called in the Lord is a freed person in the Lord, just as the free person who has been called is a slave of Christ.

You have been purchased at a price. Do not become slaves to human beings.

Brothers, everyone should continue before God in the state in which he was called.

This is the quote I was speaking of!
Peace
Jason

[the lumberjack]

culturewarrior...I was merely asking a question dood...chill homie.

I know that the protestant side of things also has its issues as well...

but like dust said, the higher ups didn't deal with it right...and I would agree. you don't just move a priest thats been convicted of something like that to another parish and just let him "take another stab at it"

feel me?

coo.

and Jason, yes, Paul says that he wishes all could be like him...but wasn't he part of the sanhedrin? like I've said before...one of the requirements for the sanhedrin was marriage... AND, Paul says[quote]Only, everyone should live as the Lord has assigned, just as God called each one. I give this order in all the churches.[/quote]

didn't he also say that it is better to be married than to burn with passion?

so if it comes to that...and we are only human...I mean c'mon...you gotta give a brother a little room...no?

God bless.

love y'all....even Jason and ironmonk!

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 3 2004, 09:27 PM']culturewarrior...I was merely asking a question dood...chill homie.

I know that the protestant side of things also has its issues as well...

but like dust said, the higher ups didn't deal with it right...and I would agree.  you don't just move a priest thats been convicted of something like that to another parish and just let him "take another stab at it"

feel me?

coo.

and Jason, yes, Paul says that he wishes all could be like him...but wasn't he part of the sanhedrin?  like I've said before...one of the requirements for the sanhedrin was marriage...  AND, Paul says

didn't he also say that it is better to be married than to burn with passion?

so if it comes to that...and we are only human...I mean c'mon...you gotta give a brother a little room...no?

God bless.

love y'all....even Jason and ironmonk!  [/quote]
I agree brother to a point,

Because Christ himself said not all are called but those who can accept should.

Not everyone is called to be a priest (celibate). But some are and Our Lord looked up to the ones who could accept it.

My point is if your called to be married, look for a wife, live out your vocation, if your called to be a celibate priest, live it out be celibate.

Their is no way (for me ever) to mix the two, I explained earlier how the priest most represents Christ, and Christ did not marry!

Much love LJ
God Bless
Jason

[phatcatholic]

[quote]Christ didn't say, "all those who wish to preach my word, must be celibate"[/quote]
just b/c jesus didn't say it, that doesn't make it wrong. he never said "the bible is the sole rule of authority" either. so, this argument doesn't seem to hold much weight to me

[quote]The disciples understood Jesus' teaching on marriage and divorce clearly; perhaps it is not a commitment to be entered into quickly or lightly.[/quote]
agreed

[quote]Jesus recognizes that celibacy is good for some, for He who is able to accept it (such as Paul, 1 Corinthians 7:7-9).  Eunuch was used figuratively for those who voluntarily abstain for marriage; it didn't necessarily mean a biological unity.[/quote]
do u mean abstain [i]from[/i] marriage? also, i'm not sure what u mean by "biological unity"

[quote]Paul spoke of celibacy...but wasn't he himself part of the sanhedrin?  and didn't you have to be married to be part of it?[/quote]
i'm not sure about his role as a member of the sanhedrin, but i do know that he was celibate. from the scriptures:

[b]1 Cor 7:7-8 [/b]I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do.

[quote]I'm just wondering why the Catholic Church mandates that all thier priests be celibate, when God makes it more than clear that it is okay to be married.[/quote]
just b/c priests follow a rule of celibacy, that does not mean that the church believes that there is something wrong w/ marriage. afterall, marriage is one of the seven sacraments, something that confers grace upon the couple. secondly, others here have already mentioned how other rites w/in the church allow for a married priesthood. thirdly, one cannot deny that both Jesus and Paul speak of celibacy rather highly, as if it were a more perfect way to serve the Lord and His Church. as such, it can surely not be rejected!

look again at this exchange between jesus and his disciples:

[b]Matt. 19:[/b]
[b]10 [/b][His] disciples said to him, "If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry."
[b]11 [/b]He answered, "Not all can accept [this] word, 8 but [b]only those to whom that is granted.[/b]
[b]12 [/b]Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; [b]some, because they have renounced marriage 9 for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it[/b]."

Jesus agrees w/ his disciples, but notes that this is not for everyone. but, it is for those who have been granted the gift of celibacy for the kingdom. those who have been so called by the Lord "are ought to accept it." essentially, if you cannot accept this word, then celibacy for the kingdom is not for u.

look at how Jesus praises those who have renounced marriage for the kingdom:

[b]Mat. 19:
29 [/b]And everyone who has given up houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or [b]children[/b] or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times more, and will inherit eternal life.

also, from Paul:

[b]1 Cor 7:
7 [/b][b]I wish that all were as I myself am[/b]. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.
[b]8 [/b]To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do.
[b]9 [/b]But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion . . .
[b]20 [/b]Every one should remain in the state in which he was called . . . . .
[b]27 [/b]Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage.
[b]28 [/b]But if you marry, you do not sin . . . Yet [b]those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that[/b]. . .
[b]32 [/b]I want you to be free from anxieties. [b]The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord[/b];
[b]33 [/b][b]But the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife[/b],
[b]34 [/b][b]and his interests are divided[/b]. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband.
[b]35 [/b][color=red][b]I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord . . . [/b][/color]
[b]38 [/b][color=red][b]So that he who marries his betrothed does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better.[/b][/color]

paul clearly raises raises those who devote themselves solely to the Lord to higher esteem then those who are likewise married. verses 35 and 38 are particularly important. paul echoes a similar sentiment in [b]2 Tim 2:3-4[/b]

[b]3 [/b]Bear your share of hardship along with me like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
[b]4 [/b]To satisfy the one who recruited him, a soldier does not become entangled in the business affairs of life.

the Church has adopted clerical celibacy as a discipline for the very reason that it is so highly affirmed in scripture. what i have attempted to prove here is that there is nothing wrong w/ this discipline. i would instead claim that it is quite virtuous, to which both Jesus and Paul attest. if u will bear w/ me just a little longer, i would like to close w/ a citation and its accompanying commentary from Isaiah:

[quote][b]Isaiah 56:3-7  [/b][i]And let not the son of the stranger, that adhereth to the Lord, speak saying: The Lord will divide and separate me from his people. And let not the eunuch say: Behold I am a dry tree. For thus saith the Lord to the eunuchs: They that shall keep my sabbaths, and shall choose the things that please me, and shall hold fast my covenant: I will give to them in my house, and within my walls, a place, and a name better than sons and daughters: I will give them an everlasting name which shall never perish. And the children of the stranger that adhere to the Lord, to worship him, and to love his name, to be his servants: every one that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and that holdeth fast my covenant: I will bring them into my holy mount and will make them joyful in my house of prayer; their holocausts, and their victims shall please me upon my altar; for my house shall be called the house of prayer, for all nations. [/i]

The 'eunuch,' is not to be considered a "dry tree,." i.e. barren. In fact, the eunuch will be blessed with children. What Isaiah is implying in this regard, is that the eunuch will be blessed with a spiritual fecundity, a harvest of souls. Through his progeny, the eunuch will have an 'everlasting name'. The 'everlasting name' pertains to the graces conferred upon the eunuch by God. He is rewarded by God for his work in bringing spiritual children into God's Eternal Kingdom. The eunuch, therefore, will be greatly honored and revered in heaven by his spiritual offspring.

The eunuch is to keep God's sabbaths and hold fast to his covenant. God's sabbath in the new creation is Sunday. Sunday is a holy day of obligation which is binding upon all Catholics. Lying at the core of the Catholic sabbath is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is not by accident that Isaiah combines sabbaths with covenant. In the New Covenant dispensation the Mass, i.e. the Eternal Sacrifice is a mandatory part of the Eternal Covenant trilogy. The Eternal Sacrifice is the visible bond, affirming that the people celebrating this rite, are in an Eternal Covenant relationship with God. As you are aware we continually underline the important significance of this covenant trilogy, Eternal Sacrifice, Gospel and its people (Israel), the Church.

The eunuch in maintaining the sabbaths and holding fast to the covenant is in effect therefore, the celebrant at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Henceforth, we can cease calling this man a eunuch, since Isaiah's prophecy, finds its fulfillment in the celibate priesthood of the Roman Catholic Church.

This house of prayer for all nations is the Church, where pleasing sacrifices acceptable to God, through Jesus Christ, (I. Pet. 2:5) are offered by all nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun, as prophesied by Malachi, (Mal. 1:11). Isaiah had clearly foreseen the universal dimensions of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. An account was recently given of the manner in which these pleasing
sacrifices are offered, in our outline of that section of the Eucharistic Liturgy called the Offertory.[/quote]

i hope this helps.........pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]secondly, others here have already mentioned how other rites w/in the church allow for a married priesthood.[/quote]

:scratch:

[phatcatholic]

i was just reaffirming what others have already said....

dUSt:[quote]Celibacy among priests is a discipline, not a doctrine. There are rites within the Church that allow it. [/quote]

Aloysius:[quote]the Eastern Rites have some married priests and some celibate priests. [/quote]

Aloysius again:[quote]In the Easter Rites, she has always allowed for married men to be ordained. [/quote]

dUSt again:[quote]But if you wanted to become a priest in the Latin rite, then it is necessary (although, there have been acceptions made for Anglican priests who converted).[/quote]

i hope this helps......pax christi,
phatcatholic