Suicide For A Cause

[his_remnant]

Can you commit suicide if you are captured in war and you know you'll break under torture and thus endanger others?

I know the Japanese were trained for this in WWII and it was in "the Hunger Games" series. I'm guessing the principle is that you are protecting others and therefore it could be seen in the same way as killing someone else in self defense or to protect someone weaker but i am not comfortable with the idea.

Thanks!

[Amppax]

[quote name='his_remnant' timestamp='1326296535' post='2366926']
Can you commit suicide if you are captured in war and you know you'll break under torture and thus endanger others?

I know the Japanese were trained for this in WWII and it was in "the Hunger Games" series. I'm guessing the principle is that you are protecting others and therefore it could be seen in the same way as killing someone else in self defense or to protect someone weaker but i am not comfortable with the idea.

Thanks!
[/quote]

Nope. I'm assuming you mean that if you are captured, you would deliberately kill yourself. That would not be moral.

[quote][b]Suicide[/b]
[color=#202020][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3][b]2280[/b] Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#202020][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#202020][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#202020][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#202020][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.[/size][/font][/color][/quote]

plus, the end's don't justify the means. Just because your end for doing so is honorable, doesn't mean you can use immoral ends to get there. No debate really.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Amppax

[Jesus_lol]

im pretty sure there are a few martyrs for the church/saints that killed themselves? i have a vague memory of one or two pious girls killing themselves to prevent being raped by some people?

[Papist]

Choosing death by someone else's hands over sinning is not suicide. You can NEVER kill yourself as yourself as the killer.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1326305636' post='2367004']
Choosing death by someone else's hands over sinning is not suicide. You can NEVER kill yourself as yourself as the killer.
[/quote]

phrased like that, sounds a lot like assisted suicide.

[Papist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1326305840' post='2367011']
phrased like that, sounds a lot like assisted suicide.
[/quote]

No. That would be murder.

Me choosing to step in front of my son to have the bear attack me in order to save my son's life is not suicide. I am not choosing death. I am choosing to save my son. However, death is an undesired outcome.

[his_remnant]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1326307625' post='2367035']
Me choosing to step in front of my son to have the bear attack me in order to save my son's life is not suicide. I am not choosing death. I am choosing to save my son. However, death is an undesired outcome.
[/quote]

so me killing myself to protect information i have is wrong because my intention is death and it's not a double effect?

[Papist]

[quote name='his_remnant' timestamp='1326321531' post='2367186']
so me killing myself to protect information i have is wrong because my intention is death and it's not a double effect?
[/quote]

My understanding is yes. You are killing yourself to prevent you from doing something you think will harm others. It is best you not do that something than kill yourself. The proper choice is to do your best to not do that something.

[Basilisa Marie]

Well, I'd say that the near-act of double suicide in the Hunger Games would have been immoral, because the intention was to kill themselves to stick it to the game makers. They probably could have still stuck it to the game makers by refusing to hurt each other, then let the dog things kill them both, but that wouldn't have been nearly as fun for the plot, and it would have been likely one would have died before the other.

For everything else brought up in this thread, so far I agree with everything Papist has said.

[DMcB]

Hunger Games?...and here I thought this thread was going to reference Chinese factory workers killing themselves in protest of (insert troubling situation).

[his_remnant]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1326328513' post='2367238']
They probably could have still stuck it to the game makers by refusing to hurt each other, then let the dog things kill them both, but that wouldn't have been nearly as fun for the plot, and it would have been likely one would have died before the other.
[/quote]

I was referencing at the end of Mockingjay with the pills that each soldier has to kill themselves/how Katniss and Gale agree to kill each other instead of being taken captive.

[quote name='DMcB' timestamp='1326332992' post='2367288']
Hunger Games?...and here I thought this thread was going to reference Chinese factory workers killing themselves in protest of (insert troubling situation).
[/quote]

Sorry, no not the death of Chinese workers...just how to explain a fiction book's moral to my siblings/Religious Ed. students.

[his_remnant]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1326325415' post='2367218']
My understanding is yes. You are killing yourself to prevent you from doing something you think will harm others. It is best you not do that something than kill yourself. The proper choice is to do your best to not do that something.
[/quote]

makes sense that way - how in self defense death is a double effect but suicide it never is.

Edited January 12, 2012 by his_remnant

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote]I was referencing at the end of Mockingjay with the pills that each soldier has to kill themselves/how Katniss and Gale agree to kill each other instead of being taken captive.[/quote]

Ah. Well that has the same moral problems with none of the lovely literary payoff.

[quote name='his_remnant' timestamp='1326333646' post='2367299']
makes sense that way - how in self defense death is a double effect but suicide it never is.
[/quote]

Because when you're defending yourself or son from a bear, the goal isn't to die - the goal is to defend yourself/son from the bear, and one hopes that one would live to tell the tale. When you kill yourself to escape torture and giving secret information, the goal isn't just to prevent the opposition from getting the info, it's to kill yourself...there's no way you can hope to survive the encounter.

[InPersonaChriste]

It's a sin, unless you are mentally unstable.

As for the Hunger Games, Katniss would have been captured and then would have been used, but seriously, I think that refusing to do things for the Capitol would account in you being painfully tortued. You would eventually die..

Or get poisoned with Tracker Jackers... But that is beside's the *real life* point.

[Papist]

[quote name='his_remnant' timestamp='1326333646' post='2367299']
makes sense that way - how in self defense death is a double effect but suicide it never is.
[/quote]

Because suicide, the killing yourself is the primary end to your actions.

Reminds me of the heroic actions the father of 7 [color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, sans-serif]Thomas VanderWoude. He saved his son from drowning and killing himself in the process. [/font][/color][url="http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/1980/91/8091209"]http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/1980/91/8091209[/url]

[Nunsense]

[quote name='DMcB' timestamp='1326332992' post='2367288']
Hunger Games?...and here I thought this thread was going to reference Chinese factory workers killing themselves in protest of (insert troubling situation).
[/quote]

I thought it was about Buddhist monks setting themselves on fire to protest the Vietnam war or the Chinese occupation of Tibet!

[Laudate_Dominum]

A Klingon warrior would rather die than be taken prisoner! A prisoner has no honor.

[Amppax]

[quote name='InPersonaChriste' timestamp='1326338264' post='2367364']
It's a sin, unless you are mentally unstable.
[/quote]

Well no, its still a sin. However, mental instability reduces culpability.

[quote][color=#202020][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can[b] diminish[/b] the responsibility of the one committing suicide.[/size][/font][/color][/quote]

Diminish. It doesn't entirely take it away. Its still a sin.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1326341913' post='2367410']
Well no, its still a sin. However, mental instability reduces culpability.



Diminish. It doesn't entirely take it away. Its still a sin.
[/quote]

True, which is why the Church no longer bars suicide victims from having a funeral mass, because we don't know the state of their soul in their final moments, and we hope that God is merciful, because it is still a sin.

[MithLuin]

Klingons are welcome to go down fighting, and I suppose our hypothetical human is, as well. If you think that being taken prisoner is something so bad that you'd have to contemplate suicide under those circumstances....then one could keep fighting, and avoid being taken prisoner.

Note that I am *not* recommending suicide-by-cop or taking on the [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=K0UzG-Gc7II]Bolivian Army[/url] single-handedly. I'm just saying that before one is a prisoner of war, one is a soldier in a war. Refusing to surrender might make one a casualty rather than a prisoner, but that would not be quite the deliberate action of an actual suicide in prison. It would be more like...dying in the midst of an escape attempt. There are many possibly outcomes; predicting the future isn't really something humans are very good at.

Killing yourself to prevent an evil that you 'might' commit and that 'might' hurt someone else is...a bit extreme. Your captors might not even care about your precious info. You might not break. Or maybe you will break, but it will be too late to actually harm anyone. Better to deal with the situation at hand. The only way I could see it being remotely justifiable would be if you had concrete evidence you were turning into a monster and/or losing control of your will. Meaning...Dr. Jekell might decide to off himself rather than be turned into Mr. Hyde permanently. It would be an act of despair, though, and that's the point - complete despair, giving up all hope....how is that the Christian thing to do? Fight to the end, never give up, not even at the last....this is both more human...and more Christian.