FutureCarmeliteClaire Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1326415556' post='2367983'] From the article... So it appears the Law is not being applied fairly. Liberals groups that actually reject or challenge Catholic Doctrine are not publicly or privately asked by [color=#333333][font=Arial,Helvetica,Verdana,sans-serif]the Detroit Archdiocese[/font][/color] to remove the name "Catholic" but only one conservative/traditional Catholic. Sad. Another case where conservative/traditional Catholics are held to a higher yet double standard. As for whether or not RealCatholicTV and it's members are disobedient or other personal judgement calls on their character being freely made here is for me a matter for the Ecclesiastical Courts and Canon Lawyers. There seems to be confusion on which Bishop has authority. I would like to see an actual statement by the Bishop, not just the spokesman, on a clear understanding of why the law is only being applied to RCTV and no other group. [/quote] You are SO right, I can't second this enough. I realized that RCTV is not even under the jurisdiction of the Archdiocese of Detroit. This diocese is corrupt, I STRONGLY encourage everyone to read the lifesite news article. The bishop of the diocese in which RCTV resides has no problem with RCTV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FutureCarmeliteClaire Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1326386726' post='2367655'] Isn't the name of his non-profit "St Michael Media"? If so, he wouldn't have to change the name of his organization. Really, all he'd have to do is change his YouTube handle. "StMichaelTV" or "RealSaintTV" or any number of catchy names without Catholic in it. If your message is being a "real" Catholic, being disobedient to your bishop is just plain stupid. [/quote] It's not RCTV's bishop, it's Voris's bishop, and Voris's St. Michael Media does not use the name Catholic in the title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 An Archbishop is not going to tell a Jesuit University to stop using the name 'Catholic.' The Jesuits are a legitimate religious order within the Church and if anyone is going to call them to task, it's going to be the pope, not the local bishop. The structure and history of the Jesuits grants them a great deal of autonomy within the Church. I am sure that many people take issue with how Jesuit universities are run, but to imagine that a bishop would invoke this part of canon law to deal with it is nonsensical - the point of this rule is so that a [i]new[/i] group, with no affiliation with the Catholic Church, cannot suddenly decide to use the name 'Catholic'. The University of Detroit Mercy [i]has[/i] the right to call itself a Catholic institution specifically because it [i]is[/i] a Jesuit university. I'm not saying no scandal or need for reform exists...I am saying that that's not what this part of canon law is about. I am familiar with a situation where the local bishop invoked this rule. The 'target' was an independent Catholic school. It was not run by the diocese, of course, nor was it run by a religious order. It was a new school started by Catholic parents who wanted to offer a Catholic education to their children in more of a homeschooling-friendly tradition. The bishop told them they could not call their school a Catholic school. THEY LISTENED TO HIM. They used a saint's name in the title of the school, but did [i]not[/i] call it a Catholic school. They call it a private, co-educational dayschool 'within the tradition of Catholic education.' The people who work there are Catholic; the school is just a private school. Do the people who started this school think they are 'more Catholic' than the local Catholic schools? Yes. The way the school is run makes it very clear that they are trying hard to be a Catholic school in all aspects -- and these parents wouldn't have started their own school if they thought the local Catholic schools were already doing that. But one of the ways of being authentically Catholic is being obedient to one's bishop, so they have respected his request *not* to put the word Catholic in the name of the school. I do not think their bishop intends to persecute them, nor do I think he 'disapproves' of their school -- he simply can't let 'just anyone' start a Catholic school in his diocese, and a lay group not associated with any parish or religious order is too rogue to gain his seal of approval for use of the name Catholic from the beginning. Maybe later, he will grant them permission to use the name Catholic or reserve the Eucharist in their chapel. But until [i]the bishop grants permission[/i], they cannot do it. And so, they are obedient, and continue to be authentically Catholic. This school, of course, is not going to make it on the news since they have a cordial relationship with their bishop. They have done nothing wrong, and are not publicly fighting with him. Voris is publicly picking a fight with the Archbishop of Detroit. Unfortunately, very little good can come of that. He is, indeed, Voris' bishop...so in the eyes of the Church, he has the authority to tell Voris what to do (in this regard). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 The law still isn't being applied fairly. Because there other groups, a great many likely, that use the name "Catholic" that actually dissent from the Faith who have not been asked to remove "Catholic" from their name. Remember RealCatholicTV is the ONLY group known in the last 20yrs in which this law has been applied by the AoD. And note to those that would continue to attack the character of Michael Voris that Voris/RealCatholicTV/SaintMichaelsMedia produced a three part DVD series entitled “"Where Did The Bible Come From?†which was all fully endorsed by then Archbishop Raymond L. Burke of St. Louis. Strange that a man who is apparently a disobedient, arrogant, smug, holier than thou, Pharisee would get such an endorsement from such a loyal and faithful Archbishop. Again, as for whether or not RealCatholicTV and it's members are disobedient or other personal judgement calls on their character being freely made here is for me a matter for the Ecclesiastical Courts and Canon Lawyers. Because there seems to be confusion on which Bishop has authority and it does not appear the law is being fairly applied. Back to sleep. God Bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 It's not a matter of the rule being uniformly and fairly enforced. That way canon law is written, you need to obtain the bishop's permission to use 'Catholic' in the name of your organization. Voris' group did not seek this permission (by their own admission), and thus they are not permitted to use the name. The bishop is well within his rights to point that out. I agree that this should be hashed out with canon lawyers and bishops. Not on youtube videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) I was going to ZzzZzz but then I checked this thread one last time and am force to show how you err. [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1326441552' post='2368258'] It's not a matter of the rule being uniformly and fairly enforced. [/quote] Yes. It. Is. [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1326441552' post='2368258']That way canon law is written, you need to obtain the bishop's permission to use 'Catholic' in the name of your organization. Voris' group did not seek this permission (by their own admission), and thus they are not permitted to use the name. The bishop is well within his rights to point that out. [/quote] Let's use an analogy to help understand why it does matter that the law is being applied unfairly. In school kids need permission to go to the bathroom. Now imagine a teacher punishing a student (who may be the student of another teacher) for not asking to go, whilst quite a few of the rest of that teacher's class also do not ask permission but only the one student is singled out. That's important because the teacher is not fairly apply the same rule to everyone. The same is true in this case and it is important and relevant. Whether you are able to see that or not Ma'am. [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1326441552' post='2368258']I agree that this should be hashed out with canon lawyers and bishops. Not on youtube videos. [/quote] At least we agree on something. Edited January 13, 2012 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) To continue that analogy, if the student complains to the other students and says 'That's not fair!' the students will likely sympathize with how he has been unfairly singled out. But if he goes home and has his mom call the school, the principal will explain, 'Ma'am, students need to ask permission to use the bathroom. Your son failed to do so. That is the rule." The mom can go on to say, 'But all the other students go without asking!' The principal is [i]extremely[/i] unlikely to relent and say, 'Oh, really, no one follows this rule anyway? Then we will just get rid of the rule!' A much more likely outcome is a reminder to the teacher to be more consistent in enforcing the rules. Either way, the kid is going to serve his punishment. I should point out that I'm a teacher, no longer a student, so that may shape how I have reacted to your example . [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1326443534' post='2368261'] I was going to ZzzZzz but then I checked this thread one last time and am forced to show how you err.[/quote] [img]http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png[/img] [center][i]Don't lose sleep over it. [/i][/center] Edited January 13, 2012 by MithLuin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1326443534' post='2368261']I was going to ZzzZzz but then I checked this thread one last time and am force to show how you err.[/quote] oh please. spare us your knowledge. Edited January 13, 2012 by Lil Red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1326443534' post='2368261'] I was going to ZzzZzz but then I checked this thread one last time and am force to show how you err. [/quote] I see Hasan is rubbing off on you... If you use a squirt bottle on Hasan, he normally stays away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Bieber hair pwns episcopal authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1326474278' post='2368368'] To continue that analogy, if the student complains to the other students and says 'That's not fair!' the students will likely sympathize with how he has been unfairly singled out. But if he goes home and has his mom call the school, the principal will explain, 'Ma'am, students need to ask permission to use the bathroom. Your son failed to do so. That is the rule." The mom can go on to say, 'But all the other students go without asking!' The principal is [i]extremely[/i] unlikely to relent and say, 'Oh, really, no one follows this rule anyway? Then we will just get rid of the rule!' A much more likely outcome is a reminder to the teacher to be more consistent in enforcing the rules. Either way, the kid is going to serve his punishment. I should point out that I'm a teacher, no longer a student, so that may shape how I have reacted to your example . [/quote] That doesn't make it ok to apply one set of rules for one student and allow the others to break it. A law applied unequally is an injustice. Plain and simple. Enforcing one set of rules on one group of people while allowing others to break it is the same as having different sets of rules for different classes of people. Looking into our history American's should know that is not just. Enforcement of law must be equitably just for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roamin Catholic Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1326482596' post='2368421'] That doesn't make it ok to apply one set of rules for one student and allow the others to break it. A law applied unequally is an injustice. Plain and simple. Enforcing one set of rules on one group of people while allowing others to break it is the same as having different sets of rules for different classes of people. Looking into our history American's should know that is not just. Enforcement of law must be equitably just for all. [/quote] So lets say there is a law not being enforced across the line (We do not know that in this case; the Bishop may have told others to stop) does that make it ok to not follow a law? Hardly, we are still expected to follow the rules no matter how they are being enforced; doesn't matter if it is just or not. Edited January 13, 2012 by Roamin_Catholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) There is absolutely no proof that the Bishop hasn't cracked down on heretical and liberal groups in his diocese! The trouble with heretical and liberal groups is they don't care about the authority of the Bishop, so they continue to use the name Catholic. (Unless it receives publicity, and unless you, yourself is part of the group, I doubt we can recognize whether or not a group has been reprimanded by the Bishop...) ...so, there isn't much difference between those wicked ol' liberals and Voris' group, now, is there??? Edited January 13, 2012 by dominicansoul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Roamin_Catholic' timestamp='1326483107' post='2368425'] So lets say there is a law not being enforced across the line (We do not know that in this case; the Bishop may have told others to stop) does that make it ok to not follow a law? [/quote] [quote name='dominicansoul'][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]There is absolutely no proof that the Bishop hasn't cracked down on heretical and liberal groups in his diocese![/font][/color][/quote] According to a representative of the AoD itself NO other group in 20 years has been asked to remove the name Catholic from their name and yet there are numerous groups in the AoD with the name Catholic in their name that actually dissent from Catholic teaching unlike Voris. So we can say there is a law not being enforced fairly across the board. [quote name='Roamin_Catholic' timestamp='1326483107' post='2368425']Hardly, we are still expected to follow the rules no matter how they are being enforced; doesn't matter if it is just or not. [/quote] Why it is being applied to one group and not others is still important and does effect if it is being applied justly. A law applied unjustly isn't a law. In any effect the one trying to enforce the law may not even have jurisdiction. Which is also important which is why I will leave it to the courts and canon lawyers to decide if RCTV is truly disobedient. It would be nice for others to do the same since there is such confusion. But I do not have high hopes for that. I fully expect RCTV to be further attacked and trashed. Edited January 13, 2012 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roamin Catholic Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1326483880' post='2368431'] A law applied unjustly isn't a law [/quote] Newsflash! Still a law unless something has overturned it. Edited January 13, 2012 by Roamin_Catholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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