Laudate_Dominum Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1326634940' post='2369490'] Sounds like my children. [/quote] Smart kids! "Blind obedience to authority is the greatest enemy of truth." - Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 P.S. Maybe we could make a new thread and discuss/debate authoritarianism and obedience. I would claim that there are substantial ethical and empirical reasons behind why I think it is important to value freedom and be skeptical of authoritarianism. Blind obedience is hardly a virtue. This might be a fun thread. And again, dear reader, please do not construe a defense of whatever Voris is up to. This is officially a tangent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1326661151' post='2369623'] Smart kids! "Blind obedience to authority is the greatest enemy of truth." - Einstein [/quote] If my children can't see, what are they to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1326661079' post='2369622'] I don't accept a call to obedience that entails fideism in doctrine or the surrender of conscience in matters of conduct. Catholicism, as I understand it, involves neither of these things. (To the second question, I am sure you realize that there is no mechanical formula for discernment of this kind. That's an even worse rabbit hole discussion.) I don't claim to know jack about the Voris situation. The fact that I'm against blind obedience to authority (from the shackles of religious fundamentalism and cults to the "banality of evil" and all that croutons), and that people who value this kind of authoritarianism make my skin crawl, is just opinion sharing time - not an argument for or against Voris. I had communicated where I'm coming from a few pages back. Anyway, what I was rejecting with the above comment was domsoul's apparent attitude about the alleged sin of disobedience. My view is that blind submission to authority is dubious. I hardly consider this to be a controversial claim. This simple fact doesn't mean that women priest activists are correct or that Voris is correct; it means that I reject the apparent premises of post number 108. [/quote] I know you're not defending Voris. I'm just wary of when a person is being directed by their conscience vs. their ego/desires etc. It can be a very fine line and I think in most cases it's better to defer to legitimate authority. In our society I believe rebellion is so glorified we need to be extra careful that we don't get "caught up" with the fight the power stuff. With this case, it sure doesn't seem to be worth the fight Voris is putting up. But then again what do I know? I'm well aware blind obedience can be detrimental (Milgram, Stanford prison). It's just very difficult to discern (in some cases) what the right course of action is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1326415556' post='2367983'] From the article... So it appears the Law is not being applied fairly. Liberals groups that actually reject or challenge Catholic Doctrine are not publicly or privately asked by [color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, sans-serif]the Detroit Archdiocese[/font][/color] to remove the name "Catholic" but only one conservative/traditional Catholic. Sad. Another case where conservative/traditional Catholics are held to a higher yet double standard. As for whether or not RealCatholicTV and it's members are disobedient or other personal judgement calls on their character being freely made here is for me a matter for the Ecclesiastical Courts and Canon Lawyers. There seems to be confusion on which Bishop has authority. I would like to see an actual statement by the Bishop, not just the spokesman, on a clear understanding of why the law is only being applied to RCTV and no other group. [/quote] Let's point out where you errrrrr You remember the Catechism [quote][b]1900 [/b]The duty of obedience requires all to give due honor to authority and to treat those who are charged to exercise it with respect, and, insofar as it is deserved, with gratitude and good-will. [/quote] Obey your bishop. That's it. It doesn't matter what he asks or doesn't ask of others. You obey what he asks of you. If you do you're orthodox. If you don't you're not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1326723417' post='2369931'] I know you're not defending Voris. I'm just wary of when a person is being directed by their conscience vs. their ego/desires etc. It can be a very fine line and I think in most cases it's better to defer to legitimate authority. In our society I believe rebellion is so glorified we need to be extra careful that we don't get "caught up" with the fight the power stuff. With this case, it sure doesn't seem to be worth the fight Voris is putting up. But then again what do I know? I'm well aware blind obedience can be detrimental (Milgram, Stanford prison). It's just very difficult to discern (in some cases) what the right course of action is. [/quote] Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FutureCarmeliteClaire Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1326725186' post='2369936'] Obey your bishop. That's it. It doesn't matter what he asks or doesn't ask of others. You obey what he asks of you. If you do you're orthodox. If you don't you're not. [/quote] It's not RCTV's bishop, though. THEIR bishop has no problem with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1326725186' post='2369936'] Obey your bishop. That's it. It doesn't matter what he asks or doesn't ask of others. You obey what he asks of you. If you do you're orthodox. If you don't you're not. [/quote] All that doesn't really follow from the quoted CCC paragraph and you're misrepresenting what the CCC is really saying there. I urge anyone who actually cares about the truth more than propping up their opinion to read what precedes and follows that "proof text" and consider carefully what it might actually mean. Edited January 16, 2012 by Laudate_Dominum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='FutureCarmeliteClaire' timestamp='1326731453' post='2369983'] It's not RCTV's bishop, though. THEIR bishop has no problem with this. [/quote] It's Voris's bishop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1326661151' post='2369623'] Smart kids! "Blind obedience to authority is the greatest enemy of truth." - Einstein [/quote] [left][i][color=#ff0000][b]The enemy:[/b][/color] Will you obey... even in this 'ridiculous' little detail?[/i] [i][b][color=#008000][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You, with God's grace:[/font][/color][/b][color=#000000][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] I will obey... even in this 'heroic' little detail.[/font][/color][/i][/left] [left][color=#000000][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=4]-St Jose Maria Escriva[/size][/font][/color][/left] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [left][i]What a pity that whoever is in charge doesn't give you good example! But, is it for his personal qualities that you obey him? Or do you conveniently interpret Saint Paul's 'obey your leaders' with a qualification of your own..., 'always provided they have virtues to my taste'?[/i][/left] [left][color=#000000][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=4]-St Jose Maria Escriva[/size][/font][/color][/left] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1326735868' post='2370011'] [left][i]"The enemy: Will you obey... even in this 'ridiculous' little detail?[/i] [i][color=#000000][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You, with God's grace: I will obey... even in this 'heroic' little detail."[/font][/color][/i][/left] [left][color=#000000][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-St Jose Maria Escriva[/font][/color][/left] [/quote] What are you trying to say? How do you think that relates to the issues of blind obedience and authoritarianism in general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1326735673' post='2370009'] All that doesn't really follow from the quoted CCC paragraph and you're misrepresenting what the CCC is really saying there. I urge anyone who actually cares about the truth more than propping up their opinion to read what precedes and follows that "proof text" and consider carefully what it might actually mean. [/quote] You could have just said "dude you quoted the wrong part of the catechism. Here is the part you were looking for." But whatever floats your boat LD. Your soapbox is a little high today. You know full well that while I might have pulled the wrong quote by accident, we are called to obey our bishops. [quote] [b]The heritage of faith entrusted to the whole of the Church[/b] [b][url=""]84[/url][/b] The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the [i]depositum fidei[/i]),[sup]45[/sup] contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."[sup]46[/sup] [b]The Magisterium of the Church[/b] [b][url=""]85[/url][/b] "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."[sup]47[/sup] This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome. [b][url=""]86[/url][/b] "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."[sup]48[/sup] [b][url=""]87[/url][/b] Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",[sup]49[/sup] the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms. [b][/quote][/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1326736201' post='2370014'] [left][i]What a pity that whoever is in charge doesn't give you good example! But, is it for his personal qualities that you obey him? Or do you conveniently interpret Saint Paul's 'obey your leaders' with a qualification of your own..., 'always provided they have virtues to my taste'?[/i][/left] [left][color=#000000][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-St Jose Maria Escriva[/font][/color][/left] [/quote] Oh, I think maybe you're indirectly criticizing Voris? Meesa get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 “The Devil doesn’t fear austerity but holy obedience.†– St. Francis de Sales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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