Ice_nine Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1329357467' post='2387789'] I love Fr Barron and his videos are teh bestus, but he's a little off on some things IMO. [/quote] like what things pertaining to this topic?
Selah Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1329323525' post='2387475'] It wasn't a serious question. [/quote] Well nao i feelz sillehz
Papist Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 [quote name='Selah' timestamp='1329359308' post='2387804'] Well nao i feelz sillehz [/quote] After a good cry and a hug from the wife, I'm good.
Mark of the Cross Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1329358045' post='2387793'] like what things pertaining to this topic? [/quote] Maybe I misunderstood what you were conveying! I thought you had seen something pertaining to this thread such as Fr Barron disassociating science to God. My problem was similar, but reverse with his video of tsunami, bushfires and hurricanes being the Holy Spirit chastising people. In a sense he was correct in that God created science and because of us he let go of the reins and as a consequence science left to itself has often been harsh on us bringing about much suffering. But I disagree with the way he saw it as chastisement. In the parable of the prodigal son, the father could have said no to the son, but could see the son would not be content until he tasted life by his own selfish desires. The father did not will hardship on the son, in fact I imagine he would have been happy if the son were successful such as all of us are. He certainly would have been unhappy if the son had met his death. No I cannot agree that the Holy Spirit sent a tsunami to Japan to chastise its people. You can't chastise people by killing them! In East Timor I won't mention human rights abuses because they were man made, but the people undergo extreme poverty and hardship for natural reasons as well. Is the Holy Spirit chastising these people? Children who are very beautiful physically and spiritually and traditional Catholics. While here in Australia with greed and creeping atheism all we've had is a few minor floods, but over all a relative easy life compared to the rest of the world. ATM! If it's chastisement then it's disproportionately inflicted on people. I would imagine the harder life for the devout being the devil trying to deter them from their love of God. But Jesus said. "Come to me those of you who are heavily laden." Edited February 16, 2012 by Mark of the Cross
Tally Marx Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1329428124' post='2388109'] Maybe I misunderstood what you were conveying! I thought you had seen something pertaining to this thread such as Fr Barron disassociating science to God. My problem was similar, but reverse with his video of tsunami, bushfires and hurricanes being the Holy Spirit chastising people. In a sense he was correct in that God created science and because of us he let go of the reins and as a consequence science left to itself has often been harsh on us bringing about much suffering. But I disagree with the way he saw it as chastisement. In the parable of the prodigal son, the father could have said no to the son, but could see the son would not be content until he tasted life by his own selfish desires. The father did not will hardship on the son, in fact I imagine he would have been happy if the son were successful such as all of us are. He certainly would have been unhappy if the son had met his death. No I cannot agree that the Holy Spirit sent a tsunami to Japan to chastise its people. You can't chastise people by killing them! In East Timor I won't mention human rights abuses because they were man made, but the people undergo extreme poverty and hardship for natural reasons as well. Is the Holy Spirit chastising these people? Children who are very beautiful physically and spiritually and traditional Catholics. While here in Australia with greed and creeping atheism all we've had is a few minor floods, but over all a relative easy life compared to the rest of the world. ATM! If it's chastisement then it's disproportionately inflicted on people. I would imagine the harder life for the devout being the devil trying to deter them from their love of God. But Jesus said. "Come to me those of you who are heavily laden." [/quote] I just read the passage in Job, where Job rebukes his friend--sort of--for erroneously thinking that suffering is only for chastisement.
Mark of the Cross Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1329428994' post='2388114'] I just read the passage in Job, where Job rebukes his friend--sort of--for erroneously thinking that suffering is only for chastisement. [/quote] Job is a beautiful parable of how our suffering is more about satans power on earth. It's only outdone by the story of how God so loved the world that he came as man to suffer and die like us to show his love for us. If there were another way besides suffering and death I'm sure he would have chosen it? [i]11 Crucifixion[/i] [i]Jesus speaks- I could have called a legion of angels to save me from this agonising end, but how else could I show my love for you? How could I ask you to endure your pain if I had avoaded mine? And so pain explodes into my brain as nails pierce my hands and feet. Then I thirst and suffer until I question my Fathers love.[/i] [i]My reply- I look at you and think, is my soul worth this much? How you must love me! How can I show my love in return?[/i] [i]......I must accept whatever sickness, torment or agony is yet to come. To every cross I touch my lips that lets me be with you, a co-redeemer of humanity![/i] Edited February 16, 2012 by Mark of the Cross
Hubertus Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 But what about all the other punishment that God carries out on entire populations for their being sinful (in Genesis, for example)? Does He not do that anymore? And Mark, do you support the theory that man evolved from a lesser form of life? It seems like everyone else here does, but I'm wanting to see the other side of the argument.
Papist Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 Need to remember that evolution only pertains to our physical nature, not our spiritual nature.
Mark of the Cross Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 [quote name='Hubertus' timestamp='1329492011' post='2388455'] But what about all the other punishment that God carries out on entire populations for their being sinful (in Genesis, for example)? Does He not do that anymore? [/quote] People often use Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of this but then [i][url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=31#x"][31][/url] Seeing, saith he, I have once begun, I will speak to my Lord. What if twenty be found there? He said: I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=32#x"][32][/url] I beseech thee, saith he, be not angry, Lord, if I speak yet once more: What if ten should be found there? And he said: I will not destroy it for the sake of ten. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=33#x"][33][/url] And the Lord departed, after he had left speaking to Abraham: and Abraham returned to his place.[/i] As people have said earlier in the thread the Bible, particularly the OT, is not a literal or historical instrument. Even the story of the great flood would need some bulk miracles from God to fix numerous physical impossibilities which would make the whole operation senseless. He may as well have just wiped the earth and recreated the animals. The OT 'depicts' a very unpleasant God, whereas the NT depicts its polar opposite. The God of the NT is the God that I know and love. Jesus said "I came not to destroy the law or the prophets" In the case of adultery for example, he didn't change the law he confirmed that it was a sin. But he dealt with it in a much different way. The only possible explanation I can come up with for the Biblical contradictions is that God is giving us a choice on how we want to see him. Do you want to see a vengeful God or a loving one? [quote]And Mark, do you support the theory that man evolved from a lesser form of life? It seems like everyone else here does, but I'm wanting to see the other side of the argument.[/quote] Most creatures have a lot in common. The physical construct of a rat is much the same as a human. This seems to indicate a common source, but I would say that's more likely to be God than evolving from a common organism. The nasty grotesque creatures probably come about through the Genesis story of the garden 'it will grow thistles and thorns for you'. Evolution seems very sound, but has numerous holes, either God performs many miracles along the way or there is a complex mechanism that we don't know about. Just postulating and maybe sticking my neck out, but that's all I can say in reply.
cmotherofpirl Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1329511937' post='2388639'] People often use Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of this but then [i][url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=31#x"][31][/url] Seeing, saith he, I have once begun, I will speak to my Lord. What if twenty be found there? He said: I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=32#x"][32][/url] I beseech thee, saith he, be not angry, Lord, if I speak yet once more: What if ten should be found there? And he said: I will not destroy it for the sake of ten. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=33#x"][33][/url] And the Lord departed, after he had left speaking to Abraham: and Abraham returned to his place.[/i] As people have said earlier in the thread the Bible, particularly the OT, is not a literal or historical instrument. Even the story of the great flood would need some bulk miracles from God to fix numerous physical impossibilities which would make the whole operation senseless. He may as well have just wiped the earth and recreated the animals. The OT 'depicts' a very unpleasant God, whereas the NT depicts its polar opposite. The God of the NT is the God that I know and love. Jesus said "I came not to destroy the law or the prophets" In the case of adultery for example, he didn't change the law he confirmed that it was a sin. But he dealt with it in a much different way. The only possible explanation I can come up with for the Biblical contradictions is that God is giving us a choice on how we want to see him. Do you want to see a vengeful God or a loving one? [/quote] I am limited to one finger typing, so this short. The is much literal history in the old testament written from a theological viewpoint. Kindly consider the times and the culture and experiences the sacred writers had to work with and that ours is a PATIENT God.
Mark of the Cross Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1329521149' post='2388709'] I am limited to one finger typing, so this short. The is much literal history in the old testament written from a theological viewpoint. Kindly consider the times and the culture and experiences the sacred writers had to work with and that ours is a PATIENT God. [/quote] If I'm understanding you correctly. What you're saying is that because language was different, ie the use of parables, allegories rather than direct modern day descriptions. And the fact that people had little knowledge outside the square they live in and translation difficulties, has resulted in a somewhat different interpretation and that Jesus had come to clarify these things. Then I would be inclined to agree on that very likely possibility. However in the past when I have made such proposals many people have vehemently disagreed with that hypothesis. Can you clarify/add to what you wrote? And I only two finger type and spell check doesn't work in PM so I have to paste into word so I don't make myself appear a total asss. Edited February 18, 2012 by Mark of the Cross
Mark of the Cross Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 Sticking my neck out even further, In Genesis we have God telling Adam [i]cursed is the earth in thy work; with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=3&l=18#x"][18][/url] Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herbs of the earth. [[url="http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=3&l=18#x"]Genesis 3:18[/url]] [[url="http://drbo.org/x/d?b=lvb&bk=1&ch=3&l=18#x"]Latin[/url]] [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=3&l=19#x"][19][/url] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return. [/i] Sounds like a curse doesn't it? Lets write it another way similar to the prodigal son. [i]Because love is only pure if it is given by free choice I cannot spoil you. I need to let go of nature and let you experience existence without my full control. And satisfy your will for your independance. And hence forth nature will produce unpleasant creatures and hardships from the environment which by your actions will be degraded even further. But I will always watch over you and not let your burdens become too great for your strength. [/i] This is undoubtedly a simplistic explanation, I'm sure it's somewhat more complex. But I do find it difficult to believe that God created then found it did not meet his expectations so he needed to destroy it and start again. Sounds like an artist that tears up a painting he is disatisfied with and starts again. IMO Everything from the beginning till the last day has express purpose and is part of a plan of a most awsome God.
Norseman82 Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1329315689' post='2387413'] If man evolved from apes, then what did apes evolve from? [/quote] I always have fun with the super-literalists - I tell them that no, I am not descended from monkeys, because I am descended from chickens - and I have written proof in my safe deposit box!! (This is neither a joke nor a lie!!) Edited February 18, 2012 by Norseman82
Papist Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1329529253' post='2388759'] I always have fun with the super-literalists - I tell them that no, I am not descended from monkeys, because I am descended from chickens - and I have written proof in my safe deposit box!! (This is neither a joke nor a lie!!) [/quote] [img]http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Confused/confused-37.gif[/img]
cmotherofpirl Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1329526213' post='2388743'] If I'm understanding you correctly. What you're saying is that because language was different, ie the use of parables, allegories rather than direct modern day descriptions. And the fact that people had little knowledge outside the square they live in and translation difficulties, has resulted in a somewhat different interpretation and that Jesus had come to clarify these things. Then I would be inclined to agree on that very likely possibility. However in the past when I have made such proposals many people have vehemently disagreed with that hypothesis. Can you clarify/add to what you wrote? And I only two finger type and spell check doesn't work in PM so I have to paste into word so I don't make myself appear a total asss. [/quote] Not allegories. Sacred writers/editors inspired by God working within a culture used what they knew. History is seen from a THEOLOGICAL standpoint: God working in time. One finger has given out
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