kujo Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Just a quic[size=4]k question. I have been having heated discussions with some of my colleagues in grad school regarding this HHS mandate, and I keep hearing that the Plan B pill is "NOT" an abortion pill. Having never seen or taken one, I was caught unaware, but evidently it says so right on the box, telling consumers that it will not terminate an existing pregnancy.[/size] [size=4]Now, I am not taking a side on this, but I am looking for a retort, and so I turn to you, P[color=#000000]M. How and why is taking this pill tanta[/color]mount to having an abortion?[/size]
Basilisa Marie Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 We Catholics believe that Plan B is an "abortion pill" because we believe that life begins when sperm-meets-egg, even before implantation. What Plan B does is thicken the lining of the uterus to prevent implantation, effectively "aborting" the sperm-meets-egg-new-life. Abortion, for other people, means getting rid of the new life after it has implanted in the uterus. Plan B won't terminate a pregnancy if the sperm-meets-egg has already implanted in the uterus, but for Catholics, life begins before that. Hope that helps.
kujo Posted February 20, 2012 Author Posted February 20, 2012 [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4][quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1329752535' post='2389982'] We Catholics believe that Plan B is an "abortion pill" because we believe that life begins when sperm-meets-egg, even before implantation. What Plan B does is thicken the lining of the uterus to prevent implantation, effectively "aborting" the sperm-meets-egg-new-life. Abortion, for other people, means getting rid of the new life after it has implanted in the uterus. Plan B won't terminate a pregnancy if the sperm-meets-egg has already implanted in the uterus, but for Catholics, life begins before that. Hope that helps. [/quote][/size][/font] [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4]Absolutely does. Thank you very [i]much[/i][/size][/font]
Lil Red Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 i think Archaelogy Cat has some good information on this too, so hopefully she can pop in!
Papist Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 The drug stops a fertilized egg from attaching to the womb, preventing it from shelter and nutrition that sustains life. The same occurs for an egg that has implanted in the wall of the uterus. So in a woman who is already pregnant, it will cause an abortion, just like RU-486 does, because it's the same kind of a drug,
Archaeology cat Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 The reason Plan B and other hormonal contraceptives are sometimes not considered abortifacients is because some have defined pregnancy as starting at implantation. Plan B and other hormonal contraceptives prevent implantation in at least some cases, but won't cause an implante embryo to be killed, as far as I know. However, since life begins at conception, defining pregnancy as after that really is beside the point, since it is still killing a life.
Sirklawd Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Great responses. Does anyone know the specific info on Ella. I hear it was sliiiiightly different than Plan B proper, but all I've been able to read is that it delays ovulation. Does this mean it holds back the chance of conception? If correct this would prevent the Plan B situation. Ofcourse in the end, when considering the overall debate in our culture, it shouldn't matter if a contraceptive causes abortions or not. We (Catholics) should not like a contraceptive because it's a contraceptive.
CatherineM Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 My question is this. If conception has not taken place, then what is it's purpose? If conception has taken place, it's only use is to abort that conception.
Archaeology cat Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 [quote name='Sirklawd' timestamp='1329758290' post='2390046'] Great responses. Does anyone know the specific info on Ella. I hear it was sliiiiightly different than Plan B proper, but all I've been able to read is that it delays ovulation. Does this mean it holds back the chance of conception? If correct this would prevent the Plan B situation. Ofcourse in the end, when considering the overall debate in our culture, it shouldn't matter if a contraceptive causes abortions or not. We (Catholics) should not like a contraceptive because it's a contraceptive. [/quote]When I looked it up, it said it works primarily by stopping/postponing ovulation,but may also prevent implantation. So it sounds pretty similar to other ormonal contraceptives, to be honest.
Annie12 Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Just to put this out there, even scientists confirm that life begins at conception. It's not just our religious belief. Check out naapc.org. It's a great website to look at. When you realize that even scientist and doctors know that life begins at conception, you realize just how convoluted the pro-choice/ pro-contraceptive argument is. It takes a lot of propaganda to make people think that life doesn't start at conception when they have scientific proof that it does. Edited February 20, 2012 by Annie12
Basilisa Marie Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 [quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1329769109' post='2390206'] Just to put this out there, even scientists confirm that life begins at conception. It's not just our religious belief. Check out naapc.org. It's a great website to look at. When you realize that even scientist and doctors know that life begins at conception, you realize just how convoluted the pro-choice/ pro-contraceptive argument is. It takes a lot of propaganda to make people think that life doesn't start at conception when they have scientific proof that it does. [/quote] Right, the sad issue is whether or not it counts as "human" life.
Annie12 Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1329770623' post='2390231'] Right, the sad issue is whether or not it counts as "human" life. [/quote] It makes my soul cry when I think of this fact. Humans are not in the role to determine such a thing; only God. This is the problem with secularism.
Anomaly Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 [quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1329771571' post='2390246'] It makes my soul cry when I think of this fact. Humans are not in the role to determine such a thing; only God. This is the problem with secularism. [/quote]It's not 'secularism'. Supposedly, moral decisons are based on Faith AND Reason. There is nothing wrong with applied reason, though religions would find it easier if members would just do as they are told, based on Faith Decrees.
elizabeth09 Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1329752535' post='2389982'] We Catholics believe that Plan B is an "abortion pill" because we believe that life begins when sperm-meets-egg, even before implantation. What Plan B does is thicken the lining of the uterus to prevent implantation, effectively "aborting" the sperm-meets-egg-new-life. Abortion, for other people, means getting rid of the new life after it has implanted in the uterus. Plan B won't terminate a pregnancy if the sperm-meets-egg has already implanted in the uterus, but for Catholics, life begins before that. Hope that helps. [/quote] Catholics As Catholics, we do believe that killing is wrong. Look at 5th Commandment. Even if a woman is taking to pill, she is telling God that she does not want to have any children, even though she promise that she will have children with her spouse. She then just lied to God, and to anyone else as well. [quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1329771571' post='2390246'] It makes my soul cry when I think of this fact. Humans are not in the role to determine such a thing; only God. This is the problem with secularism. [/quote] I have only one quastion as well. How come the ones I hear about is women taking the pill and not men?
Archaeology cat Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1329770623' post='2390231'] Right, the sad issue is whether or not it counts as "human" life. [/quote]In my debates with my very pro-choice cousin, the question isn't whether the child is human, but if he is a person. Very sad.
Annie12 Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1329772178' post='2390252'] It's not 'secularism'. Supposedly, moral decisons are based on Faith AND Reason. There is nothing wrong with applied reason, though religions would find it easier if members would just do as they are told, based on Faith Decrees. [/quote] I understand what you are saying though I'm not sure if I agree with you. I guess I meant "the Godlessness of our society". Edited February 20, 2012 by Annie12
EmilyAnn Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 [quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1329758972' post='2390052'] When I looked it up, it said it works primarily by stopping/postponing ovulation,but may also prevent implantation. So it sounds pretty similar to other ormonal contraceptives, to be honest. [/quote] It would depend on the point in the cycle I would think. These things usually have several mechanisms which they work by to make sure they are "effective". The 'primary' mechanism is preventing ovulation and therefore conception but if the woman has already ovulated that is when the abortive effects come in, preventing implantation rather than conception.
elizabeth09 Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 [quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1329774863' post='2390278'] In my debates with my very pro-choice cousin, the question isn't whether the child is human, but if he is a person. Very sad. [/quote] It is very sad. We have to pray for people like your cousin.
Tally Marx Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1329774863' post='2390278'] In my debates with my very pro-choice cousin, the question isn't whether the child is human, but if he is a person. Very sad. [/quote] I'll pray for your cousin. But "person" is synonymous with "human individual". (Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th edition) Arguing it by any other definition isn't an argument about personhood, but an argument about which human individuals *matter*. Point that out to your cousin, then ask when we began valuing others by the price tag a third party sticks upon them. (Assuming you haven't already, which you probably have...) Edited February 21, 2012 by Tally Marx
Archaeology cat Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 [quote name='EmilyAnn' timestamp='1329782198' post='2390301'] It would depend on the point in the cycle I would think. These things usually have several mechanisms which they work by to make sure they are "effective". The 'primary' mechanism is preventing ovulation and therefore conception but if the woman has already ovulated that is when the abortive effects come in, preventing implantation rather than conception. [/quote]Yes, I would think that's so. [quote name='elizabeth09' timestamp='1329782223' post='2390302'] It is very sad. We have to pray for people like your cousin. [/quote] [quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1329783300' post='2390310'] I'll pray for your cousin. But "person" is synonymous with "human individual". (Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th edition) Arguing it by any other definition isn't an argument about personhood, but an argument about which human individuals *matter*. Point that out to your cousin, then ask when we began valuing others by the price tag a third party sticks upon them. (Assuming you haven't already, which you probably have...) [/quote]thank you for your prayers! I've gone round and round with his wife and him on this debate. I just need to keep praying for them.
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