Why I Have Been A Jerk Lately

[Aloysius]

that's not true, Delivery, it only earns a death sentence if first you're Muslim and then you convert away from Islam in Sharia. I don't know if that's in the Koran or some Hadiths or what, but I'm pretty sure it's a tenant of Sharia law at least.

there is indeed an affirmation in the origins of islam for conquering nations to spread Islam, but it is not so much convert or die, it's about putting Islam into power and then making people of other religions into second class citizens. indeed, North Africa was Christian before it was conquered by Muslims, and it continued to have a sizeable Christian presence there for some time even under a Muslim majority rule--ultimately what killed off the Christian community was the black death, because the black death hit harder among the poor, and since the Christians in those countries were second class citizens, they were poor.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1331281316' post='2398148']
that's not true, Delivery, it only earns a death sentence if first you're Muslim and then you convert away from Islam in Sharia. I don't know if that's in the Koran or some Hadiths or what, but I'm pretty sure it's a tenant of Sharia law at least.

there is indeed an affirmation in the origins of islam for conquering nations to spread Islam, but it is not so much convert or die, it's about putting Islam into power and then making people of other religions into second class citizens. indeed, North Africa was Christian before it was conquered by Muslims, and it continued to have a sizeable Christian presence there for some time even under a Muslim majority rule--ultimately what killed off the Christian community was the black death, because the black death hit harder among the poor, and since the Christians in those countries were second class citizens, they were poor.
[/quote]
Seems to me that the exception to the rule is Ethiopia. They have a rich Christian heritage with a vibrant community of believers even today.

[Aloysius]

indeed, while the Muslims did conquer, they didn't precisely wipe everyone out. they wanted to put Islam into power, and with Islam in power they would use that power to pressure people to convert, to be sure, but to not convert was not a death sentence. it was a sentence to pay extra taxes and be a bit socially ostracized and occassionally persecuted from time to time, ie to be a persecuted religious minority second-class citizen--a dhimmi, but there was not any official systemetic policy of "convert or die". I don't know exactly what happened in terms of Ethiopia compared to the majority of North Africa, though the Black Death was worst in the areas directly around the Meditaranean I believe so that may have spared the Ethiopians a bit.

[Luigi]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1331282785' post='2398150']
indeed, while the Muslims did conquer, they didn't precisely wipe everyone out. they wanted to put Islam into power, and with Islam in power they would use that power to pressure people to convert, to be sure, but to not convert was not a death sentence. it was a sentence to pay extra taxes and be a bit socially ostracized and occassionally persecuted from time to time, ie to be a persecuted religious minority second-class citizen--[/quote]

Sounds just like Ireland under the British.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1331306820' post='2398215']
Sounds just like Ireland under the British.
[/quote]
Under the English*. No wonder you potato mongers were crushed so easily.

[Guest]

Ok then all these sites citing koran text about violence and death on non believers must be " taking them out of context". These are catholic sources too. I'm on a cell phone so I can't copy and paste. When I get to a computer I will.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1331309986' post='2398235']
Under the English*. No wonder you potato mongers were crushed so easily.
[/quote]

idgi

But Ethiopia is pretty dope. I'd love to go there some day. AFAIK they're the only African country whose current political borders are not just conventions of colonialism, but reflect a more long-standing history of the region.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1331328434' post='2398375']
idgi[/quote]
You must be one of them.
[quote]

But Ethiopia is pretty dope. I'd love to go there some day. AFAIK they're the only African country whose current political borders are not just conventions of colonialism, but reflect a more long-standing history of the region.
[/quote]
Yes, except for the whole Somalia thing (there some controversy, the details of which I am not 100% on, but it involves Ethiopians believing that Somalis are Ethiopian, but the Somalis feeling differently...or something...).

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1331306820' post='2398215']
Sounds just like Ireland under the British.
[/quote]

Not even close, what the English did to the Irish was genocide, pure and simple.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1331317167' post='2398291']
Ok then all these sites citing koran text about violence and death on non believers must be " taking them out of context". These are catholic sources too. I'm on a cell phone so I can't copy and paste. When I get to a computer I will.
[/quote]

Still haven't seen any citations from the source material from you, DB. And just because someone is Catholic, doesn't mean they know anything about Islam.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Basilisa Marie

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://www.bbc.edu/journal/volume6_1/Jihad-Ingalls.pdf"]http://www.bbc.edu/journal/volume6_1/Jihad-Ingalls.pdf[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Maf28F7TgkgJ:cryptome.org/2012/01/inspire/inspire-4.pdf+&cd=20&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us"]http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Maf28F7TgkgJ:cryptome.org/2012/01/inspire/inspire-4.pdf+&cd=20&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us[/url]

[Totus Tuus]

I have thought a lot about why people are so harsh to each other around here sometimes (myself included). I think, as we've discussed ad nauseam, it's really hard to express yourself the way you're trying to when all you have is a keyboard. But I also think there are instances when something is personal for us (like in the case you just explained in your apology/explanation, Hasan). I have to say that, despite the fact that you have indeed been somewhat of an unmentionable at times, I do admire (or maybe marvel at?) your interest in having discussions with people you don't see eye-to-eye with (that being conservative Catholics like most of the PMers). Anyone who sticks it out around here despite the drama that goes on and keeps on trying to find the truth while behaving reasonably cordially, regardless of the background they're coming from, is admirable in my opinion.

[Guest]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1331334973' post='2398418']


Still haven't seen any citations from the source material from you, DB. And just because someone is Catholic, doesn't mean they know anything about Islam.
[/quote] I don't have internet on my computer. So I'm stuck on this phone. Even if I am wrong the muslim religion is not one of peace. I see nothing good about it or how the koran could be considered beautiful. I guess I am at a state in my life where I hate religion. I'm sick of it. I embrace Catholicism but other then that I see nothing good about religion. And I even see the negatives of Catholicism but I also see the postives. Anyhow to whoever I have offended in this thread I appologise. Again I hate religion and it ends up angering me when I talk about it. Godbless.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1331341490' post='2398434']
I don't have internet on my computer. So I'm stuck on this phone. Even if I am wrong the muslim religion is not one of peace. I see nothing good about it or how the koran could be considered beautiful. I guess I am at a state in my life where I hate religion. I'm sick of it. I embrace Catholicism but other then that I see nothing good about religion. And I even see the negatives of Catholicism but I also see the postives. Anyhow to whoever I have offended in this thread I appologise. Again I hate religion and it ends up angering me when I talk about it. Godbless.
[/quote]

Hmm. Well, if it helps, talking about religion is a hobby of mine. That might be part of the reason why we're butting heads.

[BG45]

Hmm, I have not seen this thread until now. I think that what's already important to be said, has been said, we're all broken human beings. The important thing is that Christ came and died for our sins and then rose again. He defeated our sins in a way we will never be able to, nor ever could. The route this thread has gone with the bickering in the offtopic-ness is only proof positive of why Christ is the Redeemer and we are those in need of redemption.

[BG45]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1331271826' post='2398112']
As someone who has actually read the entire Qur'an, I'm not going to give your opinions about what it says any credit until you read it. Books say things. People teach and interpret. Why would you want to read this book? I could think of a few reasons involving its beauty and historical significance, but I'm getting the feeling those may not interest you.
[/quote]

I totally just had deja vu to the recently locked Whosoever thread there with how we all can't even really agree on the interpretation of the Bible and the importance of the magisterium as compared to 30,000 Protestant denominations. Everyone can claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, but are they? In the same way, I feel our Muslim friends also face the same problem in their interpretation of the Qur'an. For every Ayatollah Khameini who uses it to preach death and destruction, there is an Ayatollah Sistani who uses it to preach a message of peace. For every Al Sadr who would use it as an excuse to oppress people with militias, there is a Sheik Hassan Yousef, who uses it as a reason to care for the poor and the needy.

Also kudos to you, I've not read it entirely, but I've actually never finished the entire Bible either!

[Guest]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1331342828' post='2398443']


Hmm. Well, if it helps, talking about religion is a hobby of mine. That might be part of the reason why we're butting heads.
[/quote] I appologise. Peace.

[Guest]

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1331343060' post='2398448']


I totally just had deja vu to the recently locked Whosoever thread there with how we all can't even really agree on the interpretation of the Bible and the importance of the magisterium as compared to 30,000 Protestant denominations. Everyone can claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, but are they? In the same way, I feel our Muslim friends also face the same problem in their interpretation of the Qur'an. For every Ayatollah Khameini who uses it to preach death and destruction, there is an Ayatollah Sistani who uses it to preach a message of peace. For every Al Sadr who would use it as an excuse to oppress people with militias, there is a Sheik Hassan Yousef, who uses it as a reason to care for the poor and the needy.

Also kudos to you, I've not read it entirely, but I've actually never finished the entire Bible either!
[/quote] Problem is the koran isn't inspired by the Holy Spirit and it denies the Divinity of Christ. On top of that there is a lot of hate in it and has caused to many deaths to count. False religion does nothing postive for anyone.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Guest

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1331343411' post='2398453']
. On top of that there is a lot of hate in it and has caused to many deaths to count
[/quote]

its a good thing the bible doesnt say to kill certain people, or to enslave them, or to disfigure or injure anyone, that would be horrible.

It would also be truly silly to say the Bible has caused even a single death, much less several wars.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Jesus_lol