Are Catholic Women Today Too Strong For The Men?

[MissyP89]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1332791880' post='2408842']
Sounds like I might need to roll the dice soon...
[/quote]

Maybe. Worst thing that's going to happen is she'll say no. And that's OK -- if she says no, you're not supposed to be with her anyway. I've always believed if it's truly your vocation to marry, God will put you on the path of the right person.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1332801945' post='2408894']
The real question is whether the "strong" women who "have it all together" are even interested in geting married due to buying in to the whole "independent", "you don't need a man" philosophy that has poisoned our culture since the 1970s.
[/quote]

But...the only man a woman really needs is Christ. No one should find all their personal fulfillment in one purely-human person. Our goal in marriage should be helping our spouse get to heaven (and raising godly children), not finding a suitable man with a suitable job to take care of us and future children.

[quote][color=#282828]You know, I had a similar conversation with the last lady I dated when she dumped me to go into a religious community and told me that "that's the risk you take when you date a religious girl" and that if I wanted to get married, I should try to find a "bad girl" (HER words, NOT MINE, before anyone jumps all over me). And just yesterday, a guy on the 'L' that struck up a conversation with me even said that I should look for a less devout Catholic girl. Very depressing thought.[/color][/quote]

UGH. There's so much hypocrisy in the world...so many women will shout all day about having the freedom to choose whatever life they want, but then when it comes to women who embrace religion, suddenly all of the "choice" goes out the window. Depressing indeed.

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1332801945' post='2408894']
The real question is whether the "strong" women who "have it all together" are even interested in geting married due to buying in to the whole "independent", "you don't need a man" philosophy that has poisoned our culture since the 1970s.
[/quote]

right because women who think that their having a guy is what they are worth hasn't led to millions of abused, codependent, unhappy women who can't love themselves because men have taught them not to.

[arfink]

These kinds of threads always start fights. The kind of fights that come from confusing a stance against modernist "feminism" with chauvinism.

Missionseeker, is it really a surprise to you that many men resent modernist feminism not because they are chauvinists, but because it's actually sexist? I'd love to support a true vision of feminism, but the modern world has corrupted it nearly as much as chauvinism was a corruption of chivalry. (or whatever you call a vision of... man...ism. Don't know what word to use.)

Edited March 27, 2012 by arfink

[tinytherese]

If a man is intimidated by who you are, then he is not the kind of man you should marry.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1332806718' post='2408933']
But...the only man a woman really needs is Christ. No one should find all their personal fulfillment in one purely-human person. Our goal in marriage should be helping our spouse get to heaven (and raising godly children), not finding a suitable man with a suitable job to take care of us and future children.
[/quote]

I thought it was God Who said "It is not good for the man to be alone". It is clear from the Bible that we were not built to be alone. But the message of the past 40 years is the opposite. Look at the results.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1332814382' post='2408981']
right because women who think that their having a guy is what they are worth hasn't led to millions of abused, codependent, unhappy women who can't love themselves because men have taught them not to.
[/quote]

And this whole "marriage means abuse, codependence, and unhappiness" negative brainwashing that has been hoisted on modern society has only made people skeptical of marriage and contributed (with the help of artificial birth control) to the rise of the acceptance of sex outside of marriage, promiscuity, out-of-wedlock childbirths, STDs, etc. Satan has played his hand really well on this one.

[MissyP89]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1332815889' post='2408993']
I'd love to support a true vision of feminism, but...
[/quote]

Stop there.

If you want to support true feminism, forget what the rest of the world is doing, saying and thinking and do it! Yes, feminism as it's meant to be has been corrupted. Satan hates anything truly empowering and dignity-affirming. It shouldn't surprise anyone that it's become what it is today.

We can either stand up and reclaim feminism, or we can cave to the temptation of bitterness and despair.

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1332819566' post='2409018']
And this whole "marriage means abuse, codependence, and unhappiness" negative brainwashing that has been hoisted on modern society has only made people skeptical of marriage and contributed (with the help of artificial birth control) to the rise of the acceptance of sex outside of marriage, promiscuity, out-of-wedlock childbirths, STDs, etc. Satan has played his hand really well on this one.
[/quote]

Funny that you put marriage in quotations, since, as you will notice, I did not ever say marriage. I said "having a guy". And by that, I didn't mean marriage. I meant the mentality that a woman is not complete with out a man's approval.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1332818942' post='2409015']
I thought it was God Who said "It is not good for the man to be alone". It is clear from the Bible that we were not built to be alone. But the message of the past 40 years is the opposite. Look at the results.
[/quote]

Matrimony is good and no one is saying otherwise. It is a vocation and a sacrament. Being married is how some people are called to serve God. This doesn't mean that we put our value and worth in whether we are married or not. Our value and worth comes from God. As I've read one woman write, that relationships are reflections of God's love, not replacements for God. God comes first, the spouse comes second, and then come ourselves.

If a woman says that she is focusing on God instead of getting married is probably discerning the religious life.

The women that you appear to be complaining of are those who only think of themselves. One woman did a public display of this when she married herself. [url="http://www.inflexwetrust.com/2012/03/18/woman-marries-herself-in-a-symbolic-ceremony/"]http://www.inflexwetrust.com/2012/03/18/woman-marries-herself-in-a-symbolic-ceremony/[/url]

[Norseman82]

[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1332822549' post='2409031']
Matrimony is good and no one is saying otherwise. It is a vocation and a sacrament. Being married is how some people are called to serve God. This doesn't mean that we put our value and worth in whether we are married or not. Our value and worth comes from God. As I've read one woman write, that relationships are reflections of God's love, not replacements for God. God comes first, the spouse comes second, and then come ourselves.

If a woman says that she is focusing on God instead of getting married is probably discerning the religious life.

The women that you appear to be complaining of are those who only think of themselves. One woman did a public display of this when she married herself. [url="http://www.inflexwetrust.com/2012/03/18/woman-marries-herself-in-a-symbolic-ceremony/"]http://www.inflexwet...bolic-ceremony/[/url]
[/quote]

I've seen the negativity and criticism of those who seek marriage at Catholic events. Maybe it's something in the Lake Michigan water, but nonetheless it just puts more obstacles in the way of people who are trying to find compatible spouses to start a family with.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1332822223' post='2409029']
Funny that you put marriage in quotations, since, as you will notice, I did not ever say marriage. I said "having a guy". And by that, I didn't mean marriage. I meant the mentality that a woman is not complete with out a man's approval.
[/quote]

"This one, at last, is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh".

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1332818942' post='2409015']
I thought it was God Who said "It is not good for the man to be alone". It is clear from the Bible that we were not built to be alone. But the message of the past 40 years is the opposite. Look at the results.
[/quote]

Yes, God did say that. But if we look at the Hebrew, the word "man" means Human, not Male Human. Many ancient Jews had a pious tradition that the first human actually had two faces, one on the front and the other on the back. When God created woman, he split the human in half. That is partly why marriage was such a holy estate in Judaism, and why there was a stigma on men and women who did not marry, because marriage was a special kind of fulfillment that was meant from the moment of creation. It makes the "bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh" even more poignant.

But all of that still doesn't change that the only man that a woman needs to be fulfilled is Christ. There is something seriously wrong if a woman bases her self-worth on a man. Of course marriage is wonderful, and highly undervalued in our society today. But a woman cannot be happy if she centers her life on anyone but Christ.

Norseman, we're not saying anything bad about marriage. We're saying there's a problem when a woman derives her dignity from a man, because on some level that makes her subhuman, if the measure of human dignity is a man's dignity.

If by the last forty years you're talking about the sexual revolution, rise in abortions and contraception, sex outside of marriage, children out of wedlock, and rise in divorce, you cannot blame that on women. Men, just as much as women, are responsible for this general trend. It takes two to tango. Yes, the feminist movement greatly contributed to these evils. But we cannot throw out feminism as a whole, because in doing so we deny the equal dignity of women.


[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1332819926' post='2409021']
Stop there.

If you want to support true feminism, forget what the rest of the world is doing, saying and thinking and do it! Yes, feminism as it's meant to be has been corrupted. Satan hates anything truly empowering and dignity-affirming. It shouldn't surprise anyone that it's become what it is today.

We can either stand up and reclaim feminism, or we can cave to the temptation of bitterness and despair.
[/quote]

^ YES.

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1332825385' post='2409039']
"This one, at last, is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh".
[/quote]

OH! I'm so sorry.

OF COURSE a woman is nothing without man's approval. Her worth IS rooted in subjugation to a man. No woman should think otherwise. Or possibly at all.


How silly of me. I was so close to being a happy, well balanced, strong, educated, and independent woman. Thank you for stopping that trainwreck.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1332801945' post='2408894']
The real question is whether the "strong" women who "have it all together" are even interested in geting married due to buying in to the whole "independent", "you don't need a man" philosophy that has poisoned our culture since the 1970s.
[/quote]
I think this is less popular a genuine ideal than it is made out to be. That's my experience, anyway, and I have many friends of varying ages (even beyond 60).

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1332825315' post='2409038']
I've seen the negativity and criticism of those who seek marriage at Catholic events. Maybe it's something in the Lake Michigan water, but nonetheless it just puts more obstacles in the way of people who are trying to find compatible spouses to start a family with.
[/quote]
That's weird.

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1332825801' post='2409043']
OH! I'm so sorry.

OF COURSE a woman is nothing without man's approval. Her worth IS rooted in subjugation to a man. No woman should think otherwise. Or possibly at all.


How silly of me. I was so close to being a happy, well balanced, strong, educated, and independent woman. Thank you for stopping that trainwreck.
[/quote]
I think there's been a breakdown in communication someplace. I didn't see where any of this was said or implied. I understand the frustration, to be sure, but I don't think anyone in this thread is talking on a separate page from anyone else. Just my feeling.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1332825315' post='2409038']


I've seen the negativity and criticism of those who seek marriage at Catholic events. Maybe it's something in the Lake Michigan water, but nonetheless it just puts more obstacles in the way of people who are trying to find compatible spouses to start a family with.
[/quote]

Based solely on your posts, I would think that you have a negative view of women. How do you talk to women that you meet in real life? I hope it's not like this.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='morostheos' timestamp='1332711310' post='2408227']
Guys, are you intimidated by women who "have it together"? Do you know of any ways us ladies can be less intimidating while still being true to ourselves?
[/quote]

Intimidated? no. Inspired? yes, absolutely.

It is my hope that this doesn't come off selfish, but why would I "want" a woman who DIDN'T have it together? If I want some timid Betty who bends to my every will and desire out of some gender based passivity and an inability to think for herself; I'll get a dog.

As to the second question, I would say as long as no one is trying to be intimidating; then you really can't be held responsible if others find you that way. Be you. I mean, we all make small tweaks to ourselves out of love for the other; but I don't think it's right that women should have to somehow 'shield' who they are for the sake of a guy's ego.

[Slappo]

If God is calling a woman (I get to men in the next sentence) to the vocation of marriage, and she refuses to get married until she finds her "St. Joseph" she very well may be neglecting her vocation and putting the salvation of many souls as stake by doing so. The same falls true for those men out there that are called to marriage and are just waiting until they find their "Mary".

You don't marry a perfect person. Women, you don't have a St. Joseph out there waiting for you, and men, you don't have an Immaculate Conception out there waiting for you to find her. Don't neglect your vocation until you find Mr. or Ms. Right. Everyone comes with baggage, you just have to find someone that has a bag that you can carry.

Marriage isn't easy. It is a sacrifice. It is difficult. It can be burdensome sometimes. It calls you to deny yourself for the sake of your family over and over again every day for the rest of your life. It is also one of the most joy filled experiences you will ever have this side of heaven, but don't let that sugar coat the reality of the challenge, sacrifice, and suffering involved. I think any married person on this board will admit that marriage can be very difficult and will push you to your limits and beyond, but that it is also one of the best experiences in life.


Edit: I realized as I wrote this that it got way off topic, but I didn't want to delete it after dwelling on this for 20 minutes .

Edited March 27, 2012 by Slappo

[MissScripture]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1332850575' post='2409089']
Intimidated? no. Inspired? yes, absolutely.

It is my hope that this doesn't come off selfish, but why would I "want" a woman who DIDN'T have it together? If I want some timid Betty who bends to my every will and desire out of some gender based passivity and an inability to think for herself; I'll get a dog.

As to the second question, I would say as long as no one is trying to be intimidating; then you really can't be held responsible if others find you that way. Be you. I mean, we all make small tweaks to ourselves out of love for the other; but I don't think it's right that women should have to somehow 'shield' who they are for the sake of a guy's ego.
[/quote]

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1332850575' post='2409089']
Intimidated? no. Inspired? yes, absolutely.

It is my hope that this doesn't come off selfish, but why would I "want" a woman who DIDN'T have it together? If I want some timid Betty who bends to my every will and desire out of some gender based passivity and an inability to think for herself; I'll get a dog.

As to the second question, I would say as long as no one is trying to be intimidating; then you really can't be held responsible if others find you that way. Be you. I mean, we all make small tweaks to ourselves out of love for the other; but I don't think it's right that women should have to somehow 'shield' who they are for the sake of a guy's ego.
[/quote]
I'm glad someone was finally honest. Thank you for this.