Visions.

[arfink]

First off, I will start by saying that I haven't told many people this, because even well-meaning and learned Catholics either scoff or just stare blankly when I say it:

I discovered when I was in seminary that, sometimes when I am attempting to meditate, I will just spontaneously [i]see[/i] things. It's happened far too often to be coincidence. It's not my imagination, because I can't "imagine" the images into something else. It's not a fault in my eye sight, because while it's happening I can, with great effort, chose to see what my eyeballs are sending to my brain instead of what I'm perceiving as though my video-signal has been hijacked from outside.

No, it's obvious that sometimes in prayer my vision is affected. I SEE THINGS. I understand this is what you'd commonly call "having a vision," or something to that effect.

I have not had a spiritual director who can really tell me much about this stuff. I'd go to spiritual direction and tell my confessor/SD what I had seen. I'd usually have it written down. Sometimes I'd draw what I saw. Most of the time he'd just sit there, in complete silence, and just look at me. He never told me what I should do about it. I don't think he thought I was crazy... maybe. I just got very little direction or guidance on what to do in those situations.

There is, of course, the solution that seems obvious to me: watch what happens, remember it, and come back to it later in prayer. But should one attempt to "interpret" a vision? Should I tell people what I see? I have never been given any commands or had any special demands made of me in those times. Sometimes I think I know what something means, and in those times the message has been pretty clear: "this is God, and I love you." Other times I just have no clue, and no amount of returning "unlocks" anything.

Is this normal for people who see things in prayer?

[J-Roq]

I think it's important to pray, pray, pray, and pray more on this. The devil can be very tricky and deceptive, and there have been many references to his wily and confusing tricks. I would continue asking pious people for their interpretations regarding your visions, and if I were you I would not wish for more or less of them, nor linger on what you see. Most importantly: PRAY. If you have been blessed with something wonderful by God, then you should pray to understand that gift so that you can properly thank Him for it and use it the way He wants you to. If this is not a gift from God, then you should pray to control it or free yourself of it.

I don't know if you should draw what you see until you understand what you are seeing, but I am certainly not qualified to give that kind of advice. I can only really advise you to do what I know is right: pray!

Edited March 28, 2012 by J-Roq

[BarbTherese]

Take care and seek a sound spiritual director willing to comment and undertake spiritual direction. Until then, were it me, I would not put much store at all by unusual phenomena and would strive to ignore them, even if necessary putting less time in prayer in order to deflect attention - if the phenomena is from God, no harm at all will come until one has sound spiritual direction and advice on the matter. I very much doubt totally (to impossible) that any sort of sound and reliable authentication or the contrary can come about from a Catholic Discussion site. It is a complex matter and would take reliable spiritual direction:

Father William Most is a reliable author on mystical type matters: [url="http://www.catholic-pages.com/bvm/private_revelations.asp"]http://www.catholic-...revelations.asp[/url]

[quote]
"(d)We need to watch out for the work of satan--he may really promote good things for a while, provided that in the long run he gains. The revelations of Necedah, Wi. seemed to have good fruits, yet were false. Rosaries were said to change to gold. Similarly for Bayside. But disobedience showed them false. St. Margaret Mary was told by Our Lord: (Autobiography, #57):"Listen, My Daughter, and do not lightly believe and trust every spirit, for satan is angry and will try to deceive you. So do nothing without the approval of those who guide you. Being thus under the authority of obedience, his efforts against you will be in vain, for he has no power over the obedient." [/quote]


Also, Fr Aumann is a well known and sound, reliable, author of texts on mystical and spiritual theology:
[quote[
[url="http://www.domcentral.org/study/aumann/st/st14.htm"][color=#444433]http://www.domcentral.org/study/aumann/st/st14.htm[/color][/url]
[color=#444433][img]http://www.domcentral.org/study/aumann/st/stheader.jpg[/img][/color]

[b]14[/b]
[b]Discernment of Spirits[/b]
It is indispensable for the direction of souls and for the study of extraordinary mystical phenomena to be able to distinguish the various spirits under which an individual may act or be acted upon. ............................... But it is also possible for an individual to come under the influence of a spirit that is [i]extrinsic [/i]to the personality, whether from [i]God [/i]or the [i]devil. [/i]For that reason it is the function of the discernment of spirits to judge whether a given act or repetition of acts [u]flows from the spirit of God, the diabolical spirit, or the spirit of the individual. [/u]

[/quote]

Edited March 30, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

It is probably likely that any who may have had mystical type of experience(s) do not speak about them nor wish to do so. And if such a person is both prudent and wise especially (2 of the 7 Gifts of The Holy Spirit at Confirmation) they will be under reliable spiritual direction, which probably would instruct them not to speak about them - unless possibly, if in a religious order, they just might be instructed by their director to speak to their superior. This latter is only a supposition - it is entirely up to a spiritual director what advice and instructions he or she may give.

[arfink]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1333151857' post='2410853']
It is probably likely that any who may have had mystical type of experience(s) do not speak about them nor wish to do so. And if such a person is both prudent and wise especially (2 of the 7 Gifts of The Holy Spirit at Confirmation) they will be under reliable spiritual direction, which probably would instruct them not to speak about them - unless possibly, if in a religious order, they just might be instructed by their director to speak to their superior. This latter is only a supposition - it is entirely up to a spiritual director what advice and instructions he or she may give.
[/quote]

Well, I don't feel comfortable going around just telling people about the contents of these... experiences. But as I said before, I have had some otherwise superb spiritual directors who have been unable or unwilling to really provide any serious guidance except to just thank God for the gifts he gives to me in prayer and to just leave it at that.

Which sounds fine to me for the moment, considering what you said. Thank you for the clarification.

[Laudate_Dominum]

How have you ruled out natural explanations such as the variety of visual hallucinations? Just curious. I like to think that my inclination would be to exhaust the natural before really supposing the extraordinary/supernatural.

[Luigi]

NO, it is NOT normal to have visions. I mean, it's not like there are lots of threads on Phatmass where we all sit around discussing our most recent visions.

But if you're having them, then you're having them.



I would document the visions and keep a record.

1. HOW? Draw them, and date the drawings. Or keep a journal, and date each entry. Of course you can do both - draw what you saw, and write what you heard or thought. A picture's worth a thousand words, but words are more specific. You might want to write about the process, too - when & where you have them, the kind of stuff you describe above; if that stuff starts to change, you can write that, too. But I wouldn't necessarily try to "interpret" the meanings. You can get yourself a blank book - available in a couple of different sizes - at almost any art supply store.

2. WHY? As the body of work develops, you may see recurring themes. If the images change a good deal, or the frequency increases or decreases, you'll be able to figure it out from the record. And if it were me, I'd forget some of the images - if they really are visions from God, drawing & writing them would help me not to forget.

3. BENEFITS?
It's a way for you to process the visions, without necessarily having to come to a definitive interpretation of them.
It may be a while before you find a spiritual director who can help you. When you do find an SD whose willing to explore this with you, you'll have some stuff you can show him. That might help figure out the recurring themes/meanings. (Sidebar: When St. Margaret Mary Alacoque had her first vision of the Sacred Heart, she reported it to her superior, who wanted [i]nothing to do with it[/i]! She wanted no visionaries in [b]her[/b] convent!)

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1333162175' post='2410916']
Well, I don't feel comfortable going around just telling people about the contents of these... experiences. But as I said before, I have had some otherwise superb spiritual directors who have been unable or unwilling to really provide any serious guidance except to just thank God for the gifts he gives to me in prayer and to just leave it at that.

Which sounds fine to me for the moment, considering what you said. Thank you for the clarification.
[/quote]

If someone you regard as a good spiritual director (or "superb" to use your adjective) advises to "just thank God for the gifts he gives to me in prayer and just leave it at that" - I would do just that and regard your visions as "gifts" as your spiritual director has instructed you. This really is quite serious guidance you have been given, I think. Nothing whatsoever can ever be lost by following and being obedient to spiritual direction. Nothing! One of the results of consolations and unusual gifts from God is an increase in virtue and your spiritual director may need to direct you over a lengthy period to be able to discern what is unfolding in the 'wake' of your gifts - the result of these gifts in your spiritual life. This is one of the means of discerning spirits for those called to discernment in spiritual direction.


The subject of special gifts being self discerning is often not very productive since it is not an easy task to be quite objective about oneself.

Were it me, I would follow that path that your spiritual director has adivsed you in being thankful for your gifts and leave it at that - until you find another spiritual director, if this is what you are planning to do. Be careful with that also, as we can be tempted to seek out only a director who will tell us what we wanted to hear in the first place. Once we hear what we wanted to hear, we then assess that as "sound spiritual direction" when it is really subject or self affirming spiritual direction.

Take care. I am not at all questioning your gifts from God, rather attempting to ensure that you are on a safe path. Not at all unsual for Satan, for example, to initially act in a manner that seems holy and virtuous - but in the long run, it is an attempt to indulge in a very real and serious attack at a later point once it has a person where it wants the person and trustful of 'what has been occuring'.

God bless!

[BarbTherese]

Here is, in part, what St Teresa of Avila (saint, mystic and Doctor of The Church) had to say, with commentary by Fr. Most:
http://www.catholic-pages.com/bvm/private_revelations.asp
[quote]
"Yet she says (Interior Castle 6. 9): "I will only warn you that, when you learn or hear that God is granting souls these graces, you must never beg or desire Him to lead you by this road. Even if you think it is a very good one... there are certain reasons why such a course is not wise."

She then goes on at length to explain her reasons: First, such a desire shows a lack of humility; second, one thereby leaves self open to "great peril because the devil has only to see a door left a bit ajar to enter"; third, the danger of auto-suggestion: "When a person has a great desire for something, he convinces himself that he is seeing or hearing what he desires." Fourth, it is presumption for one to want to choose his own path, as only the Lord knows which path is best for us. Fifth, very heavy trials usually go with these favors: could we be sure of being able to bear them? Sixth, "you may well find that the very thing from which you had expected gain will bring you loss."

She then adds that there are also other reasons, and continues with some wholesome advice that one can become very holy without this sort of thing: "There are many holy people who have never known what it is to receive a favor of this sort, and there are others who receive such favors even though they are not holy." We think of the frightening words of Our Lord in Mt. 7.22-23. Speaking of the last day, He said: "Many will say to me on that day: "Lord , Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out devils in your name, and work many miracles in your name? And then I will tell them: I never knew you. Depart from me you workers of iniquity." St. Teresa adds: "It is true that to have these favors must be a very great help towards attaining a high degree of perfection in the virtues; but one who has attained the virtues at the cost of his own work has earned much more merit." [/quote]

Nothing is lost by exercising much common sense, prudence and wisdom. If one is receiving special gifts from God for His Reasons, nothing on this earth or anywhere can defeat His Works. Some of our saints who did receive unusual gifts were persecuted both by spiritual direction and sometimes within their own community of religious life. This type of persecution can be that "part of very heavy trials" that St Teresa speaks about in connection with these gifts. And as most all those with expertise in spiritual and mystical theology advise, follow sound spiritual direction for a very safe path. A sound spiritual director has qualities of personal holiness, wisdom with experience and is educated in spiritual and even mystical theology. Should one perhaps not have a sound spiritual director and be following his or her advice without knowing, The Lord will not allow that person being directed to go astray through obedience. Never!

Edited March 31, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

The 'litmus test' for all things regardless in the spiritual life is growth in virtue by the subject and most especially humility, the foundation of all the virtues, primarily however Faith - the first of the three theological virtues. Common sense is the guide of all the virtues (St Albert - Ancient Rule of Carmel). This is not a 'flash in the pan' type of virtue but an established and consistent path of andgrowth in virtue. For a spiritiual director, this takes time and perhaps much time to observe and become confident about re any firm assessments and most especially in the case of unusual gifts.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07543b.htm "Humility is, however, said to be the foundation of the spiritual edifice, but in a sense inferior to that in which faith is called its foundation. Humility is the first virtue inasmuch as it removes the obstacles to faith — per modum removens prohibens, as St. Thomas says."


Catholic Education REsource Centre
"Humility" http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0015.html

[Annie12]

I would say first of all what are you seeing? It is religious in any way? second, are you sure your eyes aren't tricking you? Thirdly, I would Pray, A LOT. maybe even for a sign that they are from God and [b]assume that they are not until you can be sure that they are.[/b] And I also am not second guessing you when you say you see things. You just have to be careful about attributing them to God until with out a doubt you can. Right now and for the past year I have been studying Marian apparitions and this advice seem to be consistent with what spiritual directors of the visionaries Told them. And also, if anything about these visions are contrary to the faith for even a second, they are NOT from God.(you probably knew that already. Sorry, if I'm annoying you.). So, if you could get anyone to be a spiritual director to just help you talk about these vision, I think it would help you a lot. And lastly, God bless and I will pray for you!

[arfink]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1333165545' post='2410952']
How have you ruled out natural explanations such as the variety of visual hallucinations? Just curious. I like to think that my inclination would be to exhaust the natural before really supposing the extraordinary/supernatural.
[/quote]

It's remotely possible. I was on one drug during my time at seminary for my ADD, which I think would be called a "psychoactive" drug, though it never listed hallucinations as a known side effect. Also the frequency/timing/content seemed to suggest something else was at work. But I suppose that's a possibility. Bit of a long shot though, I think. My old SD seemed to think so too.

(Something to note about ADD and ADD medications- they tend to really REALLY dull emotion, imagination, and appetite in my experience. I don't think this kind of "vision" experience fits with the reality of the drugs...)

Anyways, the advice given seems reasonable to me, and re-enforces what I have largely been told, with the exception of what Luigi said, which is a bit of a new concept to me. I don't have access to my old spiritual director anymore, since I left seminary, and haven't really had access to anyone for that kind of thing in a long time. I am beginning to have some of my old faith-life rekindled after getting pretty well lost for a couple years out of seminary. Hopefully I'll find someone to be a good guide sometime soon, 'cuz right now my Pham is all I have. You guys helped preserve what little of my faith I had left during the past couple years, and I thank you for your help with this stuff.

Edited March 31, 2012 by arfink

[Annie12]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1333219214' post='2411209']
It's remotely possible. I was on one drug during my time at seminary for my ADD, which I think would be called a "psychoactive" drug, though it never listed hallucinations as a known side effect. Also the frequency/timing/content seemed to suggest something else was at work. But I suppose that's a possibility. Bit of a long shot though, I think. My old SD seemed to think so too.

(Something to note about ADD and ADD medications- they tend to really REALLY dull emotion, imagination, and appetite in my experience. I don't think this kind of "vision" experience fits with the reality of the drugs...)

Anyways, the advice given seems reasonable to me, and re-enforces what I have largely been told, with the exception of what Luigi said, which is a bit of a new concept to me. I don't have access to my old spiritual director anymore, since I left seminary, and haven't really had access to anyone for that kind of thing in a long time. I am beginning to have some of my old faith-life rekindled after getting pretty well lost for a couple years out of seminary. Hopefully I'll find someone to be a good guide sometime soon, 'cuz right now my Pham is all I have. You guys helped preserve what little of my faith I had left during the past couple years, and I thank you for your help with this stuff.
[/quote]
My brother has ADD and takes meds for it and the other day he said he was hearing things so, it could be your medication.

[BarbTherese]

It sounds as if it just might be the medication and I would be checking out the possibility medically - and continue to search for a good spiritual director, even if it is possibly the medication. You would be then armed with information medically about the medication to pass on to your director. If you were only on the medication during your time at the seminary and are no longer taking it, somewhat doubtful that the visions, whatever, would continue years after ceasing the medication. But best to check things out medically and to have a good spiritual director and be guided by the latter.

[arfink]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1333254704' post='2411394']
It sounds as if it just might be the medication and I would be checking out the possibility medically - and continue to search for a good spiritual director, even if it is possibly the medication. You would be then armed with information medically about the medication to pass on to your director. If you were only on the medication during your time at the seminary and are no longer taking it, somewhat doubtful that the visions, whatever, would continue years after ceasing the medication. But best to check things out medically and to have a good spiritual director and be guided by the latter.
[/quote]

Sorry I didn't respond sooner- I'd like to point out that this has happened to me for a while before going on ADD meds, while I did a few years on ADD meds, and continues even now, when I have been off my ADD meds for over 3 years.

So yes. Not sure why I'm bothering to offer more information when you keep saying the same thing... I dunno. Thanks all the same!

Edited April 5, 2012 by arfink