Artificial Contraception (Not Your Average Question...)

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1334311601' post='2416913']
Look into other options. If options are available and you don;t bother to look because it is more convenient not to, then your intent is slothful and likely sinful. Don't allow yourself to be deceived by the quacks out there. The culture of death is rampant. Refuse to be a part of it.
[/quote]

This is a bit harsh. You have to realize that teen girls are fed the wonder pill idea from a young age, and are never EVER given any alternitives but suffering. And when you've suffered through the pain of a REALLY bad period you'd about sell your soul to fix it, ironically.

The anxiety and fear that a woman faces comming off of something that has substantially benefited her life is HUGE. Some women are in so much pain that they go to the hospitial and recieve morphine, that they pass out, and have other problems. And we're not talking shirking violets either but tough women. Some do choose to have their ovaries removed and this is ok becuase the overies are diseased, but this also renders the woman infertile.

Calling modern medicine a "quack" is harsh. Some of it is run by drug companies and misguided, but most doctors are caring people.

[Drew-Memphis]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' timestamp='1334323219' post='2416943']


This is a bit harsh. You have to realize that teen girls are fed the wonder pill idea from a young age, and are never EVER given any alternitives but suffering. And when you've suffered through the pain of a REALLY bad period you'd about sell your soul to fix it, ironically.

The anxiety and fear that a woman faces comming off of something that has substantially benefited her life is HUGE. Some women are in so much pain that they go to the hospitial and recieve morphine, that they pass out, and have other problems. And we're not talking shirking violets either but tough women. Some do choose to have their ovaries removed and this is ok becuase the overies are diseased, but this also renders the woman infertile.

Calling modern medicine a "quack" is harsh. Some of it is run by drug companies and misguided, but most doctors are caring people.
[/quote]

Very well put, Autumn.

Its ideas like that make people wonder why we are stuck in the Stone Age. God gave us modern medicine for a reason.

[Basilisa Marie]

The only thing I'd like to add is that I've heard lately of a bunch of women having very serious reactions to Yaz in particular. Like Autumn and others have said, there's nothing morally wrong with using the Pill as medicine as long as no one is "benefiting" from the contraceptive properties. But be careful with Yaz.

[qfnol31]

I would definitely get a second professional opinion on Yaz. My wife was recommended something similar by the most prominent Catholic institutions in our area, but we got a second opinion and he said that the first recommendation wasn't necessary and that there were other treatments. I think there are multiple options for PCOS, and sometimes it's not necessary to control at all.

I don't know anything about Yaz, but as long as it's not an abortifacient your wife (when she becomes such) is fine in taking it (if it's the only resort), but there might be other viable alternatives for you to consider. If it's an abortifacient, then having intercourse with her while she's on the pill might be cause for grave concern. It's one thing for a medicine to prevent pregnancy and another for it to terminate pregnancy at any stage. Look into this as best you can.

Also, beware that some of the medicines prescribed for PCOS have other consequences that might make it not worthwhile to take the medicine. I just advise caution with these sorts of problems and get a second opinion if you can. My wife did and we're very happy she did.

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='Drew-Memphis' timestamp='1334339718' post='2417102']
Very well put, Autumn.

Its ideas like that make people wonder why we are stuck in the Stone Age. God gave us modern medicine for a reason.
[/quote]

Please don't take my support of the emotinal issues as approval of post-wedding birth control use. Right now your fiancee is likely minimally harming her body...but using birth control while having sex a child could die or suffer ill affects. It's a serious thing.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1334343485' post='2417185']
I would definitely get a second professional opinion on Yaz. My wife was recommended something similar by the most prominent Catholic institutions in our area, but we got a second opinion and he said that the first recommendation wasn't necessary and that there were other treatments. I think there are multiple options for PCOS, and sometimes it's not necessary to control at all.

I don't know anything about Yaz, but as long as it's not an abortifacient your wife (when she becomes such) is fine in taking it (if it's the only resort), but there might be other viable alternatives for you to consider. If it's an abortifacient, then having intercourse with her while she's on the pill might be cause for grave concern. It's one thing for a medicine to prevent pregnancy and another for it to terminate pregnancy at any stage. Look into this as best you can.

Also, beware that some of the medicines prescribed for PCOS have other consequences that might make it not worthwhile to take the medicine. I just advise caution with these sorts of problems and get a second opinion if you can. My wife did and we're very happy she did.
[/quote]Q, all hormonal contraception is potentially abortifacient. The drug info for Yaz states this, as well (not in those words, but in saying that one of the mechanisms is that it changes the endometrial lining to make it less favorable for implantation should conception occur). That is a secondary mechanism, but there is no way to know how often that happens.

As I said before, I fully understand the fear of going off the pill/looking for an alternative treatment. I'm sure that's even more true when the doc has said she could lose the ovary if she isn't on the pill. Doctors do try their best, but are also heavily influenced by the drug companies. When I worked at an OB/GYN office, drug reps came by every week with free samples, and bout lunch for everyone. It would be very difficult to withstand the constant barrage, I think. My doctor never discussed an alternative, even though she knew my problem wasn't hormonal, as she'd tested my hormone levels. There was never a discussion at all, and in fact I was often given the free samples that the drug companies left. When she ran out of the samples of one, she switched me to another. I wish I'd questioned it, but I'd grown up just trusting the doc without question, in part because my grandfather and uncle were doctors. Now, I question everything, not to be belligerent, but to ensure the treatment is necessary and appropriate. Of course I trust that my doctor has more knowledge than I, but I also need to ensure that I understand what he's saying and why, and need to know of alternatives in order to make an informed choice. I just would really encourage your fiancée to ask about alternatives, too. The answer might surprise her. (oh, side note. With one doctor's office when I phoned to ask about alternatives, I got an earful from the nurse about how the Church couldn't dictate what I did with my body, and she never gave the question over to the doc, which out me off asking again for some time. Sometimes you encounter such things, but it's an entirely appropriate question to ask).

I wish you the best on your upcoming wedding, Drew. God bless.

[Archaeology cat]

Drew, I wanted to add that I'm happy to talk over PM and email, too, if you or your fiancée wish. I'm not an expert on PCOS, just a woman who was mistakenly put on the pill and regrets not questioning it, and is now an NFP instructor.

God bless

Edited April 14, 2012 by Archaeology cat

[Nola Seminarian]

[quote name='Drew-Memphis' timestamp='1334245696' post='2416398']
Hey Pham!

Quick question from my phone. So bear with me.

Of course, we all know about the Church's stance on artificial contraception, namely "The Pill".

My question stems from my own situation.

My fiancée and I are getting married in October and she has unfortunately been diagnosed with PCOS. For you all that are unfamiliar, this is Poly Cystic Ovarian Syndrome. For this, she was prescribed Yaz, to regulate her cycle, which was every 2-3 months and very irregular.

She has to stay on this unless she were to have her ovaries removed.

What is the church's position on this?
[/quote]

it is entirely acceptable to take this as a medicine because it is not your intention to take it as contraception. if this medicine as a result of the way it is supposed to work as a means of contraception causes abortion (as many Artificial Birth Control pills do) as one of the ways it controls birth, then you are to abstain from sex.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='savvy' timestamp='1334274228' post='2416757']
Are you saying contraception is okay if one is not married?
[/quote]

Contraception is a matter of intent. One can take a bottle of sleeping pills to commit suicide. There is no problem with taking one or two to induce sleep.

Another application is that an abortion is immoral but if a neccessary medical procedure ends the life of the unborn child that is not immoral. I.e. an ectopic pregnancy can be treated with surgery.

[url="http://www.cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=57"]http://www.cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=57[/url]

Edited April 19, 2012 by thessalonian

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Drew-Memphis' timestamp='1334247365' post='2416410']
I'm of the personal opinion that God judges your intent. We aren't using it to avoid pregnancy but due to her irregular cycles and medical condition.

If we were using it for birth control, that would be different. Additionally, NFP would be next to impossible with an irregular cycle.
[/quote]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1334854352' post='2420648']
Contraception is a matter of intent. One can take a bottle of sleeping pills to commit suicide. There is no problem with taking one or two to induce sleep.
[/quote]

You guys probably already know this, but I just want to clarify. The morality of an action is never [i]just[/i] about intent. There are 3 things that have to be in place (all 3 must be morally good) for a morally good action:[list=1]
[*]intent (or goal)
[*]action (the actual action being done)
[*]circumstances
[/list]
So, even if you're using the pill for a medically licit reason, if there's a chance that contraception can take place then it is not morally licit. The only way to be taking the pill morally (at all - before or after marriage) is to refrain from sexual intercourse. Of course, morally speaking, refraining from sexual intercourse is required before marriage, anyway.

So yes, God judges your intent. But He also judges your actions, and He also weighs the circumstances around those actions into His judgement.

[CMoon72]

Hey Drew-Memphis,

I'm from Memphis too! Good stuff, man.

As a Catholic, I sure can't see how one can justify the use of the pill for anything. You can't tell me that there are not other drugs (if that is the best way to regulate a period) which won't do the same thing, but is not a contraceptive at heart.

Obviously, you should follow your own conscience, but seriously, I'd look into alternatives before I'd condone the use of the pill for anything. I just can't see the logic in it. No matter what the perceived good in it, it shuts off the possibility for procreating and human life. I don't see an upside.

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='CMoon72' timestamp='1334861567' post='2420739']
Hey Drew-Memphis,

I'm from Memphis too! Good stuff, man.

As a Catholic, I sure can't see how one can justify the use of the pill for anything. You can't tell me that there are not other drugs (if that is the best way to regulate a period) which won't do the same thing, but is not a contraceptive at heart.

Obviously, you should follow your own conscience, but seriously, I'd look into alternatives before I'd condone the use of the pill for anything. I just can't see the logic in it. No matter what the perceived good in it, it shuts off the possibility for procreating and human life. I don't see an upside.
[/quote]

Unfortunatly, when affecting fertility hormones (which would affect one's period) they would affect fertility. Sometimes there are other treatments like elimination diet or minor surgery that relieve the problems.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1334859040' post='2420719']
You guys probably already know this, but I just want to clarify. The morality of an action is never [i]just[/i] about intent. There are 3 things that have to be in place (all 3 must be morally good) for a morally good action:[list=1]
[*]intent (or goal)
[*]action (the actual action being done)
[*]circumstances
[/list]
So, even if you're using the pill for a medically licit reason, if there's a chance that contraception can take place then it is not morally licit. The only way to be taking the pill morally (at all - before or after marriage) is to refrain from sexual intercourse. Of course, morally speaking, refraining from sexual intercourse is required before marriage, anyway.

So yes, God judges your intent. But He also judges your actions, and He also weighs the circumstances around those actions into His judgement.
[/quote]I agree with you almost entirely here. Unfortunately, a few notable Catholic theologians have muddied this situation by reducing the liceity of contraception to intent alone, which has become a prevalent point of view within the laity.

However, Pope Paul VI is very clear that devices that can prevent conception are licit for medical reasons, so long as they don't cause an abortion should conception take place.

Edited April 19, 2012 by qfnol31

[FutureCarmeliteClaire]

I have PCOS as well (I have not had a period in 8 months). I am not on any pill because my doctor doesn't want to tamper with my hormones since I am young. She told me to loose some weight (because hormones are stored in fat cells) and that should regulate it unless there are any further problems. I have to loose about 15 pounds to get things back to normal.

Perhaps your fiancée could talk to her doctor about an alternative treatment or solution, and talk about the problems that you guys would face once you got married and she is still taking this pill. Or maybe she could talk to an NFP doctor?

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1334865229' post='2420786']
However, Pope Paul VI is very clear that devices that can prevent conception are licit for medical reasons, so long as they don't cause an abortion should conception take place.
[/quote]

It took me half a minute to understand the distinction.

I'll have to read up on that - sorry if I don't take what you're saying at face value.

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='FutureCarmeliteClaire' timestamp='1334865547' post='2420795']
I have PCOS as well (I have not had a period in 8 months). I am not on any pill because my doctor doesn't want to tamper with my hormones since I am young. She told me to loose some weight (because hormones are stored in fat cells) and that should regulate it unless there are any further problems. I have to loose about 15 pounds to get things back to normal.

Perhaps your fiancée could talk to her doctor about an alternative treatment or solution, and talk about the problems that you guys would face once you got married and she is still taking this pill. Or maybe she could talk to an NFP doctor?
[/quote]

Good job!

Keep at it. A normal PCOS thing they don't tell you about is diabetes...I have 2 friends with the disease, one who's in her mid 40's and is diabetic, one who's 33 and pre-diabetic. There is a theory that the pill really can do damage in that dept becuase weight gain can't be treated for the serious factor it is.

[CMoon72]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1334865229' post='2420786']
I agree with you almost entirely here. Unfortunately, a few notable Catholic theologians have muddied this situation by reducing the liceity of contraception to intent alone, which has become a prevalent point of view within the laity.

However, Pope Paul VI is very clear that devices that can prevent conception are licit for medical reasons, so long as they don't cause an abortion should conception take place.
[/quote]

Can you show me where that is? I don't mean to be difficult, but I can't see a Pope saying something like that and I don't remember reading it in his work on Human Life.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1334867867' post='2420824']


It took me half a minute to understand the distinction.

I'll have to read up on that - sorry if I don't take what you're saying at face value.
[/quote]I can't multi quote from my phone, but this is for both of you:

Lawful Therapeutic Means

15. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever. (19)

[Lil Red]

here is the link to Humanae Vitae http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

[CMoon72]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1334869239' post='2420839']
I can't multi quote from my phone, but this is for both of you:

Lawful Therapeutic Means

15. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever. (19)
[/quote]

That seems to be pretty ambiguous. What does Paul VI mean by "any motive?" I tried to google Pope Pius' speech to urologists and found nothing. But regardless of that, should the pill be considered therapeutic? Because doesn't Paul VI say directly above,

[quote][font="Times"][size="3"][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]14. Therefore We base Our words on the first principles of a human and Christian doctrine of marriage when [b]We are obliged once more to declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun [/b]and, above all, all direct abortion, [b]even for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as lawful means of regulating the number of children[/b]....[/size][/font][/size][/font][/quote]

Edited April 20, 2012 by CMoon72