Communion With Heretics

[arfink]

[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1339794630' post='2445183']
Would you pray the Hail Mary with a Protestant whore you meant while doing street evangelization?
[/quote]

Intentional troll is intentional.

[MIKolbe]

iono why, but that made me chuckle.

[Amory]

[quote name='apostolicfathers' timestamp='1339613234' post='2444339']
Communion with Heretics is sinful and after reading Rome Has Spoken by William DeTucci I was conviced never to approach the SSPX unless they repented and came back to the Church.
[/quote]

The SSPX is arguably schismatic, but I've seen no evidence that it's heretical.

It's fine that you want to avoid the SSPX unless (or, more likely, until) it is reconciled with Rome, but you should be careful to describe accurately the group you are arguing against.

[Amory]

Also, in relation to the topic title of this thread, the following is a good and relatively recent article that describes when and if it's proper to pray with non-Catholics:

[url="http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/thomas-crean/praying-with-non-catholics.htm"]http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/thomas-crean/praying-with-non-catholics.htm[/url]

[BG45]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1339898956' post='2445429']
[img]http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/oh-you-40.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Judging from MiKolbe's comment and Red's poster here, I'd say Cam is back under a different name and the same IP address.

[PilgrimageOfGrace]

I'm not sure what status the SSPX has now, but it definitely was in schism -- they broke canon law not only in ordaining those 4 Bishops illicitly (which does carry an automatic excommunication) but also in that there were not 3 Bishops present making it illicit.

[Guest apostolicfathers]

[quote name='Hubertus' timestamp='1339798238' post='2445198']
Interesting.. Does anyone have any sources on past restrictions of praying with heretics, and Communicatio in Sacris? I'm not finding much with Google except from fringe sedevecantist/conclavist groups.
[/quote]

[b]St. Theodore the Studite[/b] said:

“There exist two fornications: one concerns
the faith and the other the body. He who has
been taken by communion with heretics—he
is the one who has fornicated with regard to
God.”

Taken from the Book: Rome Has Spoken by William DeTucci

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='apostolicfathers' timestamp='1340058130' post='2446016']
[b]St. Theodore the Studite[/b] said:

“There exist two fornications: one concerns
the faith and the other the body. He who has
been taken by communion with heretics—he
is the one who has fornicated with regard to
God.”

Taken from the Book: Rome Has Spoken by William DeTucci
[/quote]
Saints are holy, not infallible, big but important detail. The heretics of St Theodore's day were not protestants either.

[Amory]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1340201583' post='2446680']
The heretics of St Theodore's day were not protestants either.
[/quote]

Nevertheless, just like today's Protestants, most Nestorians and Monophysites in St. Theodore's day were from families that had belonged to those religions for centuries.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Amory

[PilgrimageOfGrace]

[quote name='apostolicfathers' timestamp='1340058130' post='2446016']
[b]St. Theodore the Studite[/b] said:

“There exist two fornications: one concerns
the faith and the other the body. He who has
been taken by communion with heretics—he
is the one who has fornicated with regard to
God.”

Taken from the Book: Rome Has Spoken by William DeTucci
[/quote]..that's anecdotal:

[left][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][color="#000000"][i]Ever hear of the prayer of St. Bridget?[/i][/color][/font][/left]

[left][size=2][b]St Brigid's Prayer[/b][/size][/left]

[size=2][color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]I'd like to give a lake of beer to God.[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]I'd love the Heavenly[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]Host to be tippling there[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]For all eternity.[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]I'd love the men of Heaven to live with me,[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]To dance and sing.[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]If they wanted, I'd put at their disposal[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]Vats of suffering.[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]White cups of love I''d give them,[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]With a heart and a half;[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]Sweet pitchers of mercy I'd offer[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]To every man.[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]I'd make Heaven a cheerful spot,[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]Because the happy heart is true.[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]I'd make the men contented for their own sake[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]I'd like Jesus to love me too.[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]I'd like the people of heaven to gather[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]From all the parishes around,[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]I'd give a special welcome to the women,[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]The three Marys of great renown.[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]I'd sit with the men, the women of God[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]There by the lake of beer[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]We'd be drinking good health forever[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida,]And every drop would be a prayer.[/font][/color][/size]

Are we conclude beer is a prayer because a saint said so?

[PilgrimageOfGrace]

[quote name='CMoon72' timestamp='1339881694' post='2445382']
Interesting...[b]First, the SSPX are not nor have they ever been in schism[/b], despite what this deTucci fella has to say. What Lefevbre did was tantamount to a schismatic act, but a schism has never been declared. That is a HUGE distinction to make. The SSPX have never disobeyed Benedict XVI, the SSPX disobeyed John Paul II, but that was reconciled in 2009. And discussion of such was put to rest with the document lifting the excommunications.
[/quote][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] [/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I'm sorry, but that's incorrect: [/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]- Archbishop Levebre unlawfully consecrated 4 Bishops (Code of Canon law 1382 - automatic excommunication[color="#181818"]).[/color][/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][color="#181818"]- He consecrated without having [u]at least [/u]2 other Bishops present (Code 1014).[/color][/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]It has been lifted though, but they have no canonical status yet:[/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][url="http://patrickmadrid.com/vatican-reminder-sspx-ordinations-are-illegitimate/"]http://patrickmadrid.com/vatican-reminder-sspx-ordinations-are-illegitimate/[/url][/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][b]I'm 100% for them coming back[/b] - we need serious Catholics - we need them coming back(and I love the Tridentine Mass), but we don't need people trying to rationalize their infringements of canon law with supposed loopholes and subtle/overt disobedience to the Pope (which they and the liberal Catholics both seem to like doing). (Side Note: If they weren't excommunicated then why was a excommunication formally lifted?)[/font]

Edited June 22, 2012 by PilgrimageOfGrace

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='CMoon72' timestamp='1339881694' post='2445382']
Interesting...First, the SSPX are not nor have they ever been in schism, despite what this deTucci fella has to say. What Lefevbre did was tantamount to a schismatic act, but a schism has never been declared. That is a HUGE distinction to make. The SSPX have never disobeyed Benedict XVI, the SSPX disobeyed John Paul II, but that was reconciled in 2009. And discussion of such was put to rest with the document lifting the excommunications.

Please don't slander them like that, while they might be in an irregular state for the moment, they will be reconciled soon and they will excercise a regular ministry.

To put your eggs in just one basket with regard to the Church is dangerous. I tend to read what the Church has said and I go off of that, not some guy who most people have never heard of.

How do you know that a Protestant is a heretic? Do they fill all of the qualifications? Are they material heretics or are they formal heretics? That makes a difference. In order to be a heretic, one must first be a Catholic. Is this Protestant a fallen away Catholic? Are you receiving Holy Communion? Because that is what Communio in Sacris really deals with.

To simply pray with a Protestant isn't sinful. But allowing them to influence your faith and to distort the truth is. So, if you are not strong enough to theologically distinguish, then you should just stay away.
[/quote]

Did i say schism, NO!

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

i would teach a self proclaimed protestant even if she where a street whore(prostitute.) the holy rosary if she would like to learn it. The thing is it may ruffle a pimps feathers and whatever gangsters he works for. I probably wouldn't tell her to quit, i would leave that up to her. I would even lovingly have a coffee with her in front of all the passers by, FOR CHRIST!. Surely a lost prostitute deserves to know christ too, as much as a lost teenager who is embarking upon sex before marriage due to ignorance or desperation, as you also have the rite to know christ (me inclusive, i could always become more christian and grow closer to christs) Meditate on the holy mysteries and explain that the 1st half of the hail mary's is biblical recital and the correct way to honour the holy mother as the angel did and johns mum, and the second half is asking for her to interceed/pray to GOD for us. If you incorporate that with the meditative part of the holy mysteries, it is all biblical even to a sola scriptora.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

but than of course if you don't know some or all of the mysteries by heart one can not meditate on the gospel of the holy mysteries and won't be able to tell them about the holy mysteries, but you can tell them about the hail mary. And i'm not saying those who just recite the hail mary's and not meditate on the mysteries should stop reciting there hail mary's, that wouldn't be my place. Thats where i started anyhow though just reciting the hail mary's when i was like 6, but when i came back to church 8 or so years ago and i had only done the hail mary's that one time with my nanna before bed when i was like 6. I got the blessed john paul the 2nd leaflet on the holy rosary and started reading the biblical verses of the holy rosary and getting to know the holy gospels over time, and than bam it all clicked in and suddenly found myself meditating while reciting the rosary. It possibly may have been after watching the passion of christ, or may have begun before that i can't remember. But anyhow i realised that theres more to each mystery than the verse proposed and started reading a little what is pre verse and post verse(the mystery verse also.) prior to each decade and eventually memorised it all and begun thinking about these in thought words and thought pictures while reciting the hail mary's. And this is how i teach people to go deeper into the mysteries of the holy rosary. Nowdays even before each mystery i will take a momment to think of the mystery and as to what it means to me personaly, like the 2nd sorrowful mystery for me is bridling my passions that draw me away from christ. You can bang out the rosary in 30 minutes or pray and meditate upon it in 40.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Amory' timestamp='1339964519' post='2445558']
Also, in relation to the topic title of this thread, the following is a good and relatively recent article that describes when and if it's proper to pray with non-Catholics:

[url="http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/thomas-crean/praying-with-non-catholics.htm"]http://www.christend...n-catholics.htm[/url]
[/quote]

So is this: [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=484"]http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=484[/url]

[brianthephysicist]

You guys are the best. I was just having a discussion about this yesterday and we didn't really come to a final conclusion because I know so little. While the discussion may not be 100% finished here, I at least have some more Catholic thoughts on this. Thanks!

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1339813661' post='2445256']
Um. Dunno where the floopy that comes from. My wife is not Catholic, yet we pray together daily, as a family should.

Mark 9:39-40.....But Jesus said "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is for us"

There is but one Body, one Church and all who are baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit are part of it, even if they do not know it or believe it. Don;t diss our seperated brethren if they have not willingly separated themselves. and don;t act all high and mighty above them. I personally am of the opinion that there are more Catholics in hell than Protestants.
[/quote]

Of course there have been more Catholics in hell than Protestants. We have had millions more than they have over the centuries. Even now there are one billion Catholics compared to six hundred million Protestants. Mathematically if they had more in hell than we did it would really say something about Protestantism.

[Marie-Therese]

Hmmm, debate table...*blurp SCHISM blurp PROTESTANTS blurp* HEY BUY MY BOOK GUYS!!!

@@.

[BG45]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' timestamp='1340912644' post='2450080']
Hmmm, debate table...*blurp SCHISM blurp PROTESTANTS blurp* HEY BUY MY BOOK GUYS!!!

@@.
[/quote]
Oh MT, I <3 your bluntness.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1340420340' post='2447726']
i would teach a self proclaimed protestant even if she where a street whore(prostitute.) the holy rosary if she would like to learn it.
[/quote]
And maybe you could ask from those who have judged her unworthy. 'let he who is free from sin cast the first stone.'