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Hello!

My dad keeps firing questions at me about whether or not the communities I am looking at, all cloistered contemplatives, are members of the LCWR. I am having a hard time finding whether PCCS are a part of the LCWR. I know each Poor Clare community is autonomous, and some are members of federations (for example the Federation of Mary Immaculate.) so does that mean they aren't part of the LCWR/CMSR/etc? Are there any traditional cloistered communities in the LCWR?

Thanks!!

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[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1339975559' post='2445607'] Sorry, but I could love pretty deeply as a Hindu nun..... I am looking for the place where God is calling me, and I know that He will ca

Dialogue and discussion means we need to both be willing to meet people where they are at. This is a forum. A forum means dialogue. This means that disagreements occur and in the freedom of discuss

[quote name='chasmi' timestamp='1341788118' post='2453635'] I think that if everyone will look back on previous threads, Sr. Marie left because of a similar discussion as this. A discussion that pas

Just basing this off memory, I don't think any PCC is part of the LCWR. Someone will need to look at it closer. CMSR usually only includes religious who are active/semi-active/have an external apostolate. I'm assuming LCWR is generally the same. Therefore, the PCC would not fit into that at all. So, an individual PCC monastery might be a part, but I'm really can't remember it happening.

Hopefully, someone can answer your question more definitively.

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[quote name='truthfinder' timestamp='1339965289' post='2445561']
Just basing this off memory, I don't think any PCC is part of the LCWR. Someone will need to look at it closer. CMSR usually only includes religious who are active/semi-active/have an external apostolate. I'm assuming LCWR is generally the same. Therefore, the PCC would not fit into that at all. So, an individual PCC monastery might be a part, but I'm really can't remember it happening.

Hopefully, someone can answer your question more definitively.
[/quote]



Thank you truthfinder! So no cloistered nuns are in the LCWR? Although he will be happy to hear this, how can I reassure him that they are still faithful to Rome--is that the point of being part of a federation?

Thanks!

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As I understand things it would be the superior of the community that would be a member, not the community as such.

I'd have to agree with truthfinder that it probably only includes those with an external apostolate, like the CMSWR since I believe the CMSWR is an off-shoot from the LCWR. The CMSWR has a list on their website of member communities but I can't find anything similar for the LCWR.

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[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1339965683' post='2445563']
Thank you truthfinder! So no cloistered nuns are in the LCWR? Although he will be happy to hear this, how can I reassure him that they are still faithful to Rome--is that the point of being part of a federation?

Thanks!
[/quote]

Remind him that if being part of one of these groups guaranteed faithfulness to Rome then the issues with the LCWR wouldn't be happening.

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No, I don't think the "point" of being part of a federation is being loyal to Rome. I believe the original reason was to have a sort of support network between monasteries of the same order to share more easily information pertaining to their own governance, formation, and spirituality. In some cases, it also is one of the allowable reason to leave a monastery - to go to a federation meeting. However, some monasteries feel that nothing gets done at these meetings, or does not help them in their life - these are faithful monasteries. Belonging, or not belonging, to a federation, does not guarantee orthodoxy OR heterodoxy. Hope this helps somewhat.

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[quote name='EmilyAnn' timestamp='1339966190' post='2445567']
Remind him that if being part of one of these groups guaranteed faithfulness to Rome then the issues with the LCWR wouldn't be happening.
[/quote]

Oh no-we are both against me joining a community in the LCWR. I know we have women religious on PM who are in the LCWR, and I don't mean to offend them, but I hope everyone understands why I wouldn't want to join a community that claims to be a member of the LCWR. So is the CMSWR in cahoots with the LCWR? By 'cahoots' I mean do they share some of the same anti-Catholic views supported by the LCWR?

[quote name='truthfinder' timestamp='1339966685' post='2445570']
No, I don't think the "point" of being part of a federation is being loyal to Rome. I believe the original reason was to have a sort of support network between monasteries of the same order to share more easily information pertaining to their own governance, formation, and spirituality. In some cases, it also is one of the allowable reason to leave a monastery - to go to a federation meeting. However, some monasteries feel that nothing gets done at these meetings, or does not help them in their life - these are faithful monasteries. Belonging, or not belonging, to a federation, does not guarantee orthodoxy OR heterodoxy. Hope this helps somewhat.
[/quote]

Gotcha-that is good to know! So there is really no way to guarantee faithfulness to Rome, except by personal correspondence and understanding of each community?

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[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1339967734' post='2445573']
Oh no-we are both against me joining a community in the LCWR. I know we have women religious on PM who are in the LCWR, and I don't mean to offend them, but I hope everyone understands why I wouldn't want to join a community that claims to be a member of the LCWR. So is the CMSWR in cahoots with the LCWR? By 'cahoots' I mean do they share some of the same anti-Catholic views supported by the LCWR?
[/quote]

Oh no, they're not in cahoots at all! The CMSWR split from the LCWR because they wanted to form an association that was entirely loyal to the Magisterium, they were uncomfortable with the way the LCWR was heading. I think all their communities still wear the habit too.

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Some communities have superiors who are members of LCWR, some of CMSWR, some of both, some of none. The only reliable way to determine whether a community is orthodox or not is to check with them individually. Their organisational affiliation alone (if they even have one) is not enough to make that judgment. You have got to use your own head.

Pray to God to guide you to the place where you will learn to love most deeply. This should be your compass-needle.

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[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1339969085' post='2445577']
Some communities have superiors who are members of LCWR, some of CMSWR, some of both, some of none. The only reliable way to determine whether a community is orthodox or not is to check with them individually. Their organisational affiliation alone (if they even have one) is not enough to make that judgment. You have got to use your own head.

Pray to God to guide you to the place where you will learn to love most deeply. This should be your compass-needle.
[/quote]

Sorry, but I could love pretty deeply as a Hindu nun..... I am looking for the place where God is calling me, and I know that He will call all His children (who are willing) to a place that is in union with Rome. I don't want any part of a community that affiliates with the LCWR--that is not to say that a community can't be affiliated with LCWR in the past when they were in full communion with Catholic teaching, but if they are backing the sisters that are being reproached with the Vatican, then they are simply not orthodox.**
**This is what I mean by affiiated with the LCWR

Thanks for all the replies!

Edited by emmaberry
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[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1339967734' post='2445573']

Gotcha-that is good to know! So there is really no way to guarantee faithfulness to Rome, except by personal correspondence and understanding of each community?
[/quote]

Pretty much. You can always check with the diocese as well, but then again, some vocation offices don't like the more orthodox communities. Lots of prayer, your gut feeling, and correspondence with the community will usually be the best. Pictures of the Holy Father may be a good sign though :hehe2:

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[quote name='EmilyAnn' timestamp='1339968053' post='2445576']
Oh no, they're not in cahoots at all! The CMSWR split from the LCWR because they wanted to form an association that was entirely loyal to the Magisterium, they were uncomfortable with the way the LCWR was heading. I think all their communities still wear the habit too.
[/quote]

Thank you for the info. That shines well on the CMSWR that they saw where the LCWR was heading.

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1339978165' post='2445616']
We are called to the fulness of life and love, so praying for God to guide you to the place where you will learn how to love him most deeply is a prayer for Him to show you where you are called. And orthodoxy is freedom to love more deeply, so it does make sense to look for a solid orthodox community.

But sometimes learning to love means letting go of our preconceptions about people. There are orthodox communities that remain affiliated with the LCWR through their superiors, because the LCWR is not a church. It does not have the ability to make pronouncements on behalf of all its members. It does not force its members to subscribe to a particular set of ideas. There are sisters who have been deeply hurt by the unfair characterisation of every LCWR-affiliated community as unorthodox - our own Sister Marie recently left Phatmass because of that.

If you say from the outset that you will never consider [i]any[/i] LCWR-affiliated community, you are smearing faithful sisters unfairly, and there is nothing orthodox about that. It also means putting God in a box - you are saying to Him, "I will go anywhere you call me, but only if they're not LCWR."

This does not just show lack of consideration to the faithful congregations within the LCWR, but also to those whose orthodoxy is not what it could be. If St Teresa of Avila had used the same standards when looking for a community to enter, she would certainly never have set foot in the Convent of the Incarnation, which in her time was very lax, with all sorts of questionable things happening - nuns from rich backgrounds could bring their own personal maids and have little apartments for themselves, while poorer nuns slept in bare cells and had to serve the well-to-do sisters. But if Teresa hadn't followed her call there, the Discalced Carmelite reform would never have happened - partly because she wouldn't have understood the need for one, but mostly because she wouldn't have possessed the necessary humility and patience to bring one about. I am not saying you have to go and be the next St Teresa of Avila, just that you have to be prepared to go wherever God wants you - and it might not look quite how you expect at first.
[/quote]

Very good points--I think I understand more fully what you are saying. Where I think we are still not seeing eye to eye is what 'affiliated with LCWR' means the way I am using it and the more literal (and more realistic) way that you are using the term. In my poor wording, I am saying that I cannot in good faith enter a community that is backing the LCWR members/leaders/board who are promoting anti-Catholic stuff. Of course, I should have just said this outright. I agree that every community in the LCWR is not unfaithful to Rome--I assume (and hope) MOST of their 15,000 members don't agree with the positions held by the LCWR's leaders...however, if their superiors decided to be members, knowing what the LCWR was promoting, then it is not far off to think that the superior promoted this stuff within the community. But, here's hoping that is NOT the case!

So I think we are using differing words to express similar ideas. I REALLY like your St Teresa of Avila example though.


I am sad to hear Sr Marie left--I did not know this. I always read her insightful posts, and she was most definitely faithful to Rome. I hate that these conversations hurt people, and I hope no one has been hurt or offended by what I have posted. That said, there are some wrong things within the LCWR that do need to be addresses and understood as 'wrong.' The hard part, at least for me, is finding a balance between realizing the danger of the LCWR's promoted views on many issues and judging those who are innocent within. It must be really painful to be a faithful community entangled in this right now....hopefully many are praying for their healing, and for the unfaithful's communities return to authentic Catholicism.

Edited by emmaberry
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Is it possible to have a call to enter a community where things are 'wrong' so as to be the leaven in the mix?
What would happen if this were the case, would one refuse?

I agree with beatitude, and in addition, we are not called to preach to the converted..............

Would I enter such a community. It would be hard, and I would have to have a very good reason for believing this was what I was being asked to do - but then we also need good reasons to enter communities we feel naturally attracted to.....

Thy Will be done.

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The problem I have with entering a community specifically to be a reformer..... even "leaven style" is as follows:

1. Pride -- this may be the underlying (even subconscious) motivating factor. Also it puts you in a position where you are constantly tempted not to small scale pride but large scale pride --- you are going in with the idea that you are "better" than everybody else that you are going to help them -- and you haven't even been formed in the charism yet. It is questionable that the charism can actually be effectively imparted to you either by reason of the community being dead to it - or because as a "reformer" you have a different spirit that you are trying to impart rather than acquiring the community's charism.

2. The whole point of joining a religious community and not another form of consecrated life is for the benefits it has for reforming the individual entering .... ie: YOU. The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life are all chiseled through the corresponding vows: chastity, poverty and obedience. If a community is lax or unorthodox (and I'm not trying to say any individual community here - human frailty is the same in any age) then you are emphatically [b]not [/b]entering into a situation where you have those benefits for which you came.

3. I have never met a young woman yet, who was bent on "reforming" or "leavening" a community who really knew what religious life was all about -- her ideas were still very much immature and needing development, frequently possessing misinformed ideas about the essentials of religious life, particular practices (especially in the penitential realm) etc.. etc... Again the attitude (even in otherwise smart and kind young women) was that "I am a gift to you, here to form you - not you to form me". Now granted... I've only met a handful, but arguably I've been in a position in religious life to see this slice of applicant, which others may not have. Also, arguably, there could be someone who [b]was[/b] asked by God to reform a community -- I'm just leery of the idea.

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