Ccm

[Amppax]

Well, its been slow around here. So, for the music debate!

Seriously though, I'm a musician, and this is something I'm interested in. The place of music in evangelization. This is off of a friend's Facebook wall, sparked an interesting discussion.

[quote]
[left][size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]So... I'm about to formulate why I have such an angsty relationship with Contemporary Christian Music (CCM). Here we go.[/font][/size][/left]


[left][size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#333333]Pop-culture is necessarily popular (as the name suggests) and therefore requires its music to be easily marketable and universally appealing - thus producing a kind of signature "secular" sound which is heavily metrical with countless rhythmic variations. Popular music also req[/color][/font][/size][/left]
[left][color=#333333][font=lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif][size=3][size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]uires a certain superficiality which does not easily offend the popular culture. Since the entire purpose of CCM is to popularize the Christian message through music and "draw people in," it unwittingly sacrifices the seriousness of the Christian message and largely reduces it to a non-denominational humanitarian effort in order to appeal to as wide an audience as it can. Thus, the Gospel of Jesus Christ and his Church become merely a "positive and encouraging" message - resulting in the empty enjoyment of music without any real deep reflection on the Faith. Instead of acknowledging sin, we proclaim God as the Savior of our emotional/psychological ailments. As a result of all this, the church no longer stands as a "Sign of Contradiction" to the culture, and the Christian message is substantially reshaped into whatever is deemed culturally acceptable. THIS is the means by which we choose to evangelize youth with - but notice how when the message is so commonplace, it spurs very few to conversion. Perhaps we ought to rethink the "necessity" of CCM altogether[/font][/size].[/size][/font][/color][/left]
[/quote]

So, thoughts?

Edited June 28, 2012 by Amppax

[ardillacid]

What is the definition of CCM? What does a band need to sound like/sing about to be CCM?

[Vincent Vega]

There is contemporary Christian music that does not sound like popular music.

[timwho]

I think many fundamentalists would say that CCM is a sort of heresy XD but that's neither here nor there.

And most CCM does sound like popular music, given its history. Just look at the Jesus Music movement that spawned CCM as a genre, it was viewed by many as something unholy. That being said, CCM tends to be increasingly used in protestant worship. I don't think there's anything inherently bad about it, music is music, but it is of note that it probably doesn't bring people to Christ, being centred more on protestants and their likings rather than a serious attempt at bringing people to Christ. Though, even being centred on protestants I feel like fro 90% of them you can substitute "Lord", "Jesus", et al. with "Girl," "Baby" et al. and not change the overall feel of the music which is telling something I think.

Though there are a few CCM pieces I throughly do like (e.g. http://www. youtube.com/watch?v=YV2zMZ-nZ7k)

but this is just me as a protestant xD

Edited June 28, 2012 by Timothy J. Hutama

[xTrishaxLynnx]

From the song "Beautiful Bride" by
Flyleaf:

[quote]
We're not gonna fall and forget
How far You went to pick us up
If one part's hurt the whole body's sick
If one part mourns we all mourn with
Him
Rejoice, and we'll sing with you
Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah,
Hallelujah
(Chorus)
Beautiful bride
Body of Christ
One flesh abiding
Strong and unifying
Fighting ends in forgiveness
Unite and fight all division
Beautiful bride
[/quote]

I wouldn't call that "a non-denominational humanitarian effort." This band is labeled "alternative metal" so is not necessarily pop-culture in the sense of "pop music" like Britney Spears or something, but it is contemporary and is played on free radio - so it's "easily marketable and appealing" enough. Their message is obviously Christian in many of their songs. Incidentally, I was introduced to the
band by my atheist cousin, who had also dabbled in witchcraft and hung around with a satanist crowd. He had started out listening to some of their less-obviously Christian songs, but when he picked up on the message, he shared them with me and began asking me questions. At first his questions were vague and general like "what does she mean by this?" but eventually, as he reflected further, he started asking more serious questions, which I answered to the best of my ability. Then we didn't talk for a while, but after some time had parseed he messaged me out of the blue and told me he'd been going to an evangelical church in town and had some more questions for me, this time about Catholicism. I answered those to the best of my ability as well, and gave him some website links to check out. While he hasn't converted to Catholicism (yet... still praying) he does consider himself Christian.

While I realize that one personal story doesn't make a case for all "CCM," I don't think that it can be entirely ruled out as a useful tool for evangelization.

Edited June 28, 2012 by xTrishaxLynnx

[Amppax]

[quote name='ardillacid' timestamp='1340851242' post='2449780']
What is the definition of CCM? What does a band need to sound like/sing about to be CCM?
[/quote]

Well I'm going to draw from my friend again

[quote]
CCM is a kind of music deliberately written in the popular style which uses Scripture as its primary lyrical inspiration & the (non-denominational) Christian life as its primary subject matter.
[/quote]

Note: I probably should have said that I don't necessarily agree with the idea of the post I'm drawing on, but I thought it was really well written, and definitely worth sharing and discussing here.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Amppax

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='xTrishaxLynnx' timestamp='1340853056' post='2449792']
... I don't think that it can be entirely ruled out as a useful tool for evangelization.
[/quote]

Certainly not.

The only danger is when Christianity is all CCM. Those that make (either accidently or intentionally) their Christianity experience all CCM are the ones in trouble. CCM in of itself definitely has plusses.

[xTrishaxLynnx]

Also, even if it's not used as a tool for conversion of others, for those of us who are already Catholic and love music, but prefer to avoid a lot of the secular music out there, CCM provides a great alternative.

[xTrishaxLynnx]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1340856095' post='2449808']
Certainly not.

The only danger is when Christianity is all CCM. Those that make (either accidently or intentionally) their Christianity experience all CCM are the ones in trouble. CCM in of itself definitely has plusses.
[/quote]

You mean "groupies" of CCM groups? Who treat concerts like they are church services?

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='xTrishaxLynnx' timestamp='1340856428' post='2449813']
You mean "groupies" of CCM groups? Who treat concerts like they are church services?
[/quote]

I don't want to inadvertently argue against praise and worship CCM.......whether that be basic Christian or not, but CCM is dangerous if that is the extent of one's faith. So if one belongs to a CCM group and the extent of their faith is CCM, that would be analogous to building one's faith on sand.

[ThePenciledOne]

Well what should CCM be compared to? Traditional hymns or something?

Every Sunday I hear traditional hymns sung by the congregation and the lack of fervor/appeal, lets me soul die inside.

It's those Sundays that I miss FUS during the summer....a lot.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1340858314' post='2449831']
Every Sunday I hear traditional hymns sung by the congregation and the lack of fervor/appeal, lets me soul die inside.
[/quote]
Even Mozart performed by St. Average's parish choir will probably sound lackluster.

Compound that with the fact that very very few Catholic parishes sing what are actually traditional hymns (or sing them exclusively), and the fact that Catholics are notorious for mumbling through music, even that which they know well, and the fact that most traditional hymns are not idiomatic to Catholic worship/liturgy, it quickly becomes clear why the music produced is often found wanting.
Nevermind the fact that the praise team is a very parseé and quickly dying form of liturgical music (but the Church moves very slowly, so I would not expect God Squads to be gone very soon).

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

i can't GOD can. GOD can make a holy pop song, just like GOD can get a rich man into heaven. Our easter message from the arch bishop was about the prodigal son and the good son, how both thought they could earn GODS love. The prodigal says at the gate basically he will do anything to be back in the fam, and the good son says how he had been working this and that in the fam. Of course that is the message in way short form. But what i got out of it is that GOD loves us all equally, and i can neither increase it or decrease it and i don't actually have to climb any mountain because he comes down to the foot of the mountain to carry me to the top. Of course works of charity in prayer,deed and word are part of the redemtive mission but when it comes to his love i can not earn it as such because it's a free gift. But ultimatley i can't GOD can. Again sure GOD can make good CCM, but than does he wan't it to replace hymns? Maybe the old testament will illuminate some light on this paticular matter "a good scholar brings out old and new." If we dared not venture outside of gregorian chant we would not have modern hymns like that 'we are companions on a journey breaking bread and sharing life." that probably isn't the correct lyrics i can't remember. As long as it is audible whats wrong? I don't know that all CCM is really praise and worship which is a hymn right? What categorises a hymn ? All that aside because acceptable music in the holy mass i'm sure is up to the bishops and cardinals. But i say yes to GOD can, and i can't.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

And anyway i was wrong to say the gregorian chant bit because the latin mass i used to attend and still goto visit sometimes i think they have an entrance hymn and an end of mass him that are not even in latin or gregorian chant, the gregorian chanting is done during the mass and the choir does most of it, there are a few parts the congregation does. So i guess there is old hymns,modern hymns and post modern hymns, i've been to various marsees that sport one or the other of these three and i have a sneaking suspicion that the parish i am currently at does a bit of modern and post modern. And than there is the charesmatic mass which seems to do include the CCM all more the CCH contemporary christian hymns like shine jesus shine and some hillsong.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Amppax]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1340858314' post='2449831']
Well what should CCM be compared to? Traditional hymns or something?

Every Sunday I hear traditional hymns sung by the congregation and the lack of fervor/appeal, lets me soul die inside.

It's those Sundays that I miss FUS during the summer....a lot.
[/quote]

I bet you could guess the past music ministry lead whose Facebook this is from.

And I agree. I miss it so much.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1340884129' post='2449917']
I bet you could guess the past music ministry lead whose Facebook this is from.

And I agree. I miss it so much.
[/quote]

I could probably guess, but I find the entire music debate entirely relative and subjective. If nothing else it's just another thing to somehow divide the Church, which I find annoying. In all honesty if 'traditional' (whatever that means) music could be done well, then sure let's have it, but I have not heard a single good rendition of any hymn in chant....so yeah that's my few cents.

[Vincent Vega]

Unfortunately, the Church [i]does[/i] tell us what is and isn't acceptable in liturgical music.

[url="http://www.adoremus.org/MotuProprio.html"]http://www.adoremus....otuProprio.html[/url]

The praise band concept is wholly foreign to and wholly inappropriate for the liturgy of the Catholic Church.

Edited June 29, 2012 by USAirwaysIHS

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1340946973' post='2450298']
Unfortunately, the Church [i]does[/i] tell us what is and isn't acceptable in liturgical music.

[url="http://www.adoremus.org/MotuProprio.html"]http://www.adoremus....otuProprio.html[/url]

The praise band concept is wholly foreign to and wholly inappropriate for the liturgy of the Catholic Church.
[/quote]

And yet, it has told us that worship with guitars and etc can be acceptable in some circumstances. Otherwise, this debate goes in circles, because conditions are debatable and etc.

As far as 'praise band' goes, I think we need to praise no matter what music is played, but droning with the rest to a traditional hymn is the fluffy air extractionhest thing from Praise that I can think of. Music is affective and if it doesn't engage the affective sphere for a person than it is insincere, unfelt and without meaning.

[Vincent Vega]

Guitars can be acceptable in cultures which have incorporated guitars into worship for centuries. Suburban white American parishes do not fall into that category.

[Vincent Vega]

[color=#222222][font='Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]

"20. It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the placeprovided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ."
[/background][/size][/font][/color]
Seems to me that that's a pretty definitive ruling. Not a lot of circular discussion to be had about that wording...