Vocation-less?

[Pax_et bonum]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DKm3-XPWIk&feature=plcp

I think some of the things they say about discernment would help you especially what Sr. Lois says about not stressing, if I'm remembering correctly.

A few weeks ago, I was doubting my ability to live the life of a religious until I realized what emma just said. I couldn't possibly live the life on my own, but if I rely on God I can. It sounds like this is a trust problem. Trust God that He will lead you to the right community or guy and that He'll help you be the best sister/wife/mother/etc you can be. There also may be some pride mixed up in there. In the movie The Nun's Story, Sr. Luke says something along the lines of wanting to be a good nun or not a nun at all. Maybe you'll only be a mediocre nun in others' eyes, but God will know your heart.

[AveMariaPurissima]

My 2 cents, since Pax_et Bonum reminded me of a personal story:
Being a perfectionist myself, I know that I personally have a tendency to want to do everything perfectly, and I tend to get upset when it doesn't happen that way. I remember the most recent time I was staying with my Sisters. I still felt called there, but there were a few practical things I was struggling with. At one point I was feeling really discouraged, and I said to one of the Sisters, "I keep wondering how I'm ever going to survive convent life!" I'll never forget her response: "You'll survive. You'll survive because Jesus is going to help you. After all, why are you entering the convent in the first place? It's for Jesus, right?"
So, FCC, in whatever vocation Jesus is calling you to, just trust Him. He will help you!

[Spem in alium]

So much wonderful advice has been given here.

It's hard to feel such doubt, but I think an importance lies in being aware of the fact that we can't please everyone. There's always bound to be someone who will react negatively to your significant choices. I have a few doubts myself. The other day I was speaking with my sister about the growing attraction I feel to religious life, and her reaction was,"But you can't become a nun! Don't do it! I need you here!"

If you listen to your heart and follow it rightly, I believe you will be following the call of God. And that's really the most important thing, because as someone mentioned (either in this post or somewhere else; I forget where), our vocation really belongs to Him. It involves many people, more than simply ourselves, but in the end it directs back to God and His plans for us. All that we do should be done with the desire to grow in closeness to Him, Christ, Our Blessed Mother and all the Saints. If you seek such a closeness with the truth, trust, humility and faith that I see you already possess, I think you can be an exceptional wife, mother, or nun.

FCC, I will keep you in prayer. May God bless you now and always.

[emmaberry]

FCC: I edited my comment after I posted, becaise I felt it sounded somewhat accusatory and that is not how I meant it to sound at all!! Seems you got a hold of it before I finished editing.

Please forgive me if the way I said anything offended you.

[color=#222222][font='Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]

[quote name='Pax_et bonum' timestamp='1341176991' post='2451258']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DKm3-XPWIk&feature=plcp[/media]
[/quote]

Thanks for the video!![/background][/size][/font][/color]

Edited July 2, 2012 by emmaberry

[FutureCarmeliteClaire]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1341191636' post='2451316']
FCC: I edited my comment after I posted, becaise I felt it sounded somewhat accusatory and that is not how I meant it to sound at all!! Seems you got a hold of it before I finished editing.

Please forgive me if the way I said anything offended you.

[color=#222222][font='Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]



[/quote]
I didn't notice anything offensive, hun! You could never offend me. Plus y'all are just trying to help and I appreciate that more than anything.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='FutureCarmeliteClaire' timestamp='1341155872' post='2451154']
Thanks guys. I am just really confused. I don't feel like I'd be good at any vocation. I'd be a croutonspy mom, and I'm be a croutonspy nun too. I don't even know anymore.
[/quote]

Haven't read all posts in thread, but our Baptism is a call from The Lord to His Gospel and to holiness. Have you read "The Apostolate of The Laity". Chapter One is titled : "The Vocation of The Laity to The Apostolate" and a vocation is a call from God. The Decree is a long document, but can be read over a number of sittings - perhaps one chapter at a time. It's worth it !

[color="#663300"]DECREE ON THE APOSTOLATE OF THE LAITY
[i][b][size="+1"]APOSTOLICAM ACTUOSITATEM[/size][/b][/i]
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS,
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 18, 1965[/color]
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651118_apostolicam-actuositatem_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651118_apostolicam-actuositatem_en.html[/url]

[PhuturePriest]

I suppose this is about the young man you met recently, correct? Well, as many have said, everyone has a vocation. You have plenty of time to discern whether or not you are called to be a Carmelite or to be married, so I wouldn't worry about deciding tomorrow. Even if you are certain you are called to marriage at one point I would still recommend visiting the Carmelites because you really can't discern fully until you have lived the life for a week to get the feel of it, just as I would recommend staying open to marriage and discerning the vocation (As I know you already are). Most of all, just trust in Jesus. He loves you and simply wants you to be happy. He knows what He is doing, even when we question it.

[FutureCarmeliteClaire]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1341197845' post='2451358']
I suppose this is about the young man you met recently, correct? Well, as many have said, everyone has a vocation. You have plenty of time to discern whether or not you are called to be a Carmelite or to be married, so I wouldn't worry about deciding tomorrow. Even if you are certain you are called to marriage at one point I would still recommend visiting the Carmelites because you really can't discern fully until you have lived the life for a week to get the feel of it, just as I would recommend staying open to marriage and discerning the vocation (As I know you already are). Most of all, just trust in Jesus. He loves you and simply wants you to be happy. He knows what He is doing, even when we question it.
[/quote]
It's not him, it's me. But I mean, I guess doubts about him helped form other doubts, but most of it is just me. I've visited the Carms and can't do a live-in until Senior year. Have found opportunities with other cloisters, though. Praise God. I'm still discerning, I'm just confused at this point. I've hit a fork in the road.

[Queen'sDaughter]

I love Sr. Lois!!!!!!!!!!

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='FutureCarmeliteClaire' timestamp='1341234903' post='2451439']
It's not him, it's me. But I mean, I guess doubts about him helped form other doubts, but most of it is just me. I've visited the Carms and can't do a live-in until Senior year. Have found opportunities with other cloisters, though. Praise God. I'm still discerning, I'm just confused at this point. I've hit a fork in the road.
[/quote]

Well, we all have our doubts. I am terrible about it. But we must remember God has a plan for each one of us, despite what alleged problems we think will get in the way of that. Visit different communities, keep praying, trust in God, and he will take care of you. If you can I would recommend bringing all your doubts to your spiritual adviser. He or she can help you much better than any of us can.

[AveMariaPurissima]

Reading this might be helpful too:
[url="http://www.mcpriests.com/03_I_thirst_PrayerEN.htm"]http://www.mcpriests.com/03_I_thirst_PrayerEN.htm[/url]
I read this whenever I'm feeling down, and it helps me so much.

[Tony]

Everyone's called to a "vocation" (lower case v) but I'm not certain everyone's called to a "Vocation" (capital V).


I spent many years thinking that a male could be called to "Vocation to the single life" but then I found out that wasn't really a "Vocation" so.. I guess I'm not called to a capital V vocation at all since I don't believe I'm called to marriage, priesthood or religious. So I go on, praying for people, offer help and advice whenever I can, and try to serve God that way.

now that I said all that, someone will probably come along and say "oh you can't be without a Capital V Vocation" and confuse me further...

[beatitude]

Tony, have you heard of secular institutes? Some of them accept men. It sounds as though this could be what you're looking for.

[filius_angelorum]

I disagree, Tony. Being single can definitely be a Vocation....if you aren't just perpetually dating In fact, there's nothing out there that says you have to even have a particular spirituality to live such a vocation. You can have a "Tonian" spirituality. Vows might help, but then again, vows might get in the way of a genuine Tonian vocation/spirituality. Just don't be a gyrovague.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='filius_angelorum' timestamp='1341353568' post='2452141']
I disagree, Tony. Being single can definitely be a Vocation....if you aren't just perpetually dating In fact, there's nothing out there that says you have to even have a particular spirituality to live such a vocation. You can have a "Tonian" spirituality. Vows might help, but then again, vows might get in the way of a genuine Tonian vocation/spirituality. Just don't be a gyrovague.
[/quote]

Can you cite a reference? Fr Thomas Dubay said that singleness is not a valid vocation...I always took that as Church teaching, but with your comment I'd like to know whether that was Fr's personal opinion. Thanks!

[EmilyAnn]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1341365986' post='2452191']
Can you cite a reference? Fr Thomas Dubay said that singleness is not a valid vocation...I always took that as Church teaching, but with your comment I'd like to know whether that was Fr's personal opinion. Thanks!
[/quote]

I think saying it's not valid is unfair. My personal take on it has always been this: the single life is what we are born into, it is our native state. A vocation, to marriage or the priesthood or religious life is a calling to leave that state and take on something else. And indeed many people are called to those vocations. But I don't think it's entirely outside the realm of possibility that there are some people to whom God is saying "I want you right where you are". It may not be a vocation in the strictest sense of the word, but that doesn't make it any less valid a life, mean that it cannot be what God desires for a person or that God values that person any less than one with a vocation to another form of life.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='EmilyAnn' timestamp='1341377097' post='2452245']
I think saying it's not valid is unfair. My personal take on it has always been this: the single life is what we are born into, it is our native state. A vocation, to marriage or the priesthood or religious life is a calling to leave that state and take on something else. And indeed many people are called to those vocations. But I don't think it's entirely outside the realm of possibility that there are some people to whom God is saying "I want you right where you are". It may not be a vocation in the strictest sense of the word, but that doesn't make it any less valid a life, mean that it cannot be what God desires for a person or that God values that person any less than one with a vocation to another form of life.
[/quote]

Definitely-I wasn't saying it was valid, though. Those were Fr. Dubay's words.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1341365986' post='2452191']
Can you cite a reference? Fr Thomas Dubay said that singleness is not a valid vocation...I always took that as Church teaching, but with your comment I'd like to know whether that was Fr's personal opinion. Thanks!
[/quote]


It can be forgotten that Baptism is a vocation and call to holiness and a following of The Gospel and in the lay state. Sometimes this is a transition state and a further call and vocation is received, sometimes there is a call and vocation to the lay state as one's permanent state in life.

[color=#000000][quote][/color]

[color=#663300]POST-SYNODAL [/color][color=#663300]APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION
[b][i]VITA CONSECRATA [/i][/b]
OF THE HOLY FATHER JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS AND CLERGY RELIGIOUS ORDERS AND CONGREGATIONS
SOCIETIES OF APOSTOLIC LIFE
SECULAR INSTITUTES [/color]
[color=#663300]AND ALL THE FAITHFUL
ON THE CONSECRATED LIFE AND ITS MISSION
IN THE CHURCH AND IN THE WORLD[/color]
[color=#663300][url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_25031996_vita-consecrata_en.html"]http://www.vatican.v...secrata_en.html[/url][/color]

[color=#000000][b][i]Thanksgiving for the consecrated life[/i][/b][/color]
[color=#000000]2. Because the role of consecrated life in the Church is so important, I decided to convene a Synod in order to examine in depth its significance and its future prospects, especially in view of the approaching new millennium. It was my wish that the Synodal Assembly should include, together with the Bishops, a considerable number of consecrated men and women, in order that they too might contribute to the common reflection.[/color]
[color=#000000]We are all aware of the treasure which the gift of the consecrated life in the variety of its charisms and institutions represents for the ecclesial community. [b][i]Together let us thank God [/i]for the Religious Orders and Institutes devoted to contemplation or the works of the apostolate, for Societies of Apostolic Life, for Secular Institutes and for other groups of consecrated persons, [u]as well as for all those individuals who, in their inmost hearts, dedicate themselves to God by a special consecration[/u].[/b][/color]

[color=#000000][/quote][/color]


[quote]
[color=#663300]DECREE ON THE APOSTOLATE OF THE LAITY
[i][b]APOSTOLICAM ACTUOSITATEM[/b][/i]
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS,
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 18, 1965[/color]
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651118_apostolicam-actuositatem_en.html"]http://www.vatican.v...sitatem_en.html[/url]

Scroll down to Chapter 1 - "[b]THE [color=#ff0000][u]VOCATION[/u] [/color]OF THE LAITY TO THE APOSTOLATE[/b]"

[/quote]


[color=#ff0000][b]And pre Vatican II[/b][/color]

[color=#000000][quote][/color]
[color=#000000][url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_25031954_sacra-virginitas_en.html"][color=blue]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_25031954_sacra-virginitas_en.html[/color][/url][/color]





[center][color=#000000][color=#663300][b]ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII [/b][/color]
[color=#663300][b]ON CONSECRATED VIRGINITY[/b][/color]
[color=#663300][b]"SACRA VIRGINITAS"[/b][/color][/color][/center]


[left][color=#000000]6. And while this perfect chastity is the subject of one of the three vows which constitute the religious state,[9] and is also required by the Latin Church of clerics in major orders[10] and demanded from members of Secular Institutes,[11] [/color]

[color=#000000][quote][/color] [color=#000000][b]it also flourishes [/b][/color][color=#ff0000][b]among many who are lay people in the full sense[/b][/color][color=#000000][b]: men and women who are not constituted in a public state of perfection and yet by private promise or vow completely abstain from marriage and sexual pleasures, in order to serve their neighbor more freely and to be united with God more easily and more closely.[/b] [/quote][/color] [color=#000000]7. To all of these beloved sons and daughters who in any way have consecrated their bodies and souls to God, We address Ourselves, and exhort them earnestly to strengthen their holy resolution and be faithful to it. [/quote][/color][/left]

[BarbTherese]

If one desires personally to limit "Vocation" per se to only the priesthood, the consecrated state and marriage, one is free to do so I guess. But it is not what The Church is stating. Is there a vocation and call to the lay state in life? Clearly there is if one refers even only to "The Decree on the Apostolate of The Laity" Chapter 1 : "The [u][b]VOCATION[/b][/u] of The Laity to the Apostolate". Defining "vocation" per se to a capital "V" and a small "v" in order to make some sort of assessment of vocation as to heirarchy is personal choice although I have no idea really what it means except a personal choice to do so and to attach one's personal defintions to big "V" and small "v". It is nowhere mentioned as such in Church documents or teaching insofar as I am aware. A vocation by its' very nature and definition is a call from God - a vocation and call from God. Certainly, the consecrated state of religious life is a call to the actual state of perfection and The Church does clearly state that the chaste celibate state in life is superior to speak on an objective theological level. And certainly, the consecrated state in life in all its various forms is a great honor indeed and also a great responsibility and accountability - and all glory to God in all things. This is all objective theological determination. Subjectively speaking, however, (totally different to the objective theological determination) nothing can be higher [u]for an individual [/u]than God's actual invitation to them for the rest of their lives. The vocation to which He invites a person.
One's personal vocation in life is simply God's invitation, not an indication that the more superior the theological determination of a vocation, the more God loves a person. We are all equally loved and all very important in the life of The Church. God desires this person here and that person somewhere else and gifts to them the necessary qualities and Grace.....all Glory to God.... and for the good of The Church and thus mankind. Ideally we rejoice in each other's particular call and vocation and the taking up of God's personal invitation whatever it may be.
We are all called to holiness and sanctity - to perfection. We are all granted the necessary Graces. Not all, however, are called to the actual state of perfection in religious life. All Glory to God and all thanksgiving and gratitude.
If one is called to the consecrated state then all the Graces necessary will be gifted to them as with any call and vocation. St. Paul tells us that the gifts of The Spirit granted to The Church are many and varied and all have an important place in the life of The Church.
Phatmass Phorum is also quite free to limit its "Vocation Forum" to certain states in life only and this is a purely personal choice on behalf of administration of same, and is not stating that this is in any way Church teaching insofar as I am aware.

Fr John A Hardon SJ "The Real Presence Assocation"
Modern Catholic Dictionary
[url="http://www.therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl"]http://www.therealpr...etdefinition.pl[/url]
[b]VOCATION. [/b]A call from God to a distinctive state of life, in which the person can reach holiness. The Second Vatican Council made it plain that there is a “Universal call [[i]vocatio[/i]] to holiness in the Church” ([i]Lumen Gentium[/i], 39). (Etym. Latin [i]vocatio[/i], a calling, summoning; from [i]vocare[/i], to call.)

Edited July 4, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

I do rejoice in vocations to Holy Orders and to the consecrated life - very much so and they do bring Joy to my heart. And I must confess that I do get defensive, and I freely admit this, if my own personal call in life is dismissed and held as not really a vocation or Vocation, whatever, whatever! It also saddens me when what The Church is stating is challenged and on any subject at all - and anywhere at all - and I guess I can get defensive on these subjects too - not only subjects in connection with "vocation" per se.
One thing I know for absolutely sure, without God's Grace to live the way that I live in the privately vowed single chaste celibate lay state and with my own Gospel based lifestyle and commitments "for the sake of The Kingdom" not because I choose to do so, but because I am aware of a call from God to do so. Without Him, I just could not live this way at all. I did not choose and respond to this vocation without spiritual direction and at the time from a priest and theologian lecturing in our seminary - also my confessor - and both pre (for years) and post (for years) onset of my Bipolar Disorder illness. At the time (without a computer and knew absolutely nil about them) I had no idea that what I was proposing to Father as a potential call from God was actually recognized as a potential vocation by The Church. In fact and in connection with my proposal, Father suggested that I apply for annulment and that he felt I had grounds, "in order to be completely free to make private vows". My ex 'husband' had already divorced me and is now remarried. After some years, my annulment was granted and the precise wording in the notification of annulment covering letter (still on file here) is "no doubt you will be happy to know that you are now completely free of your marital bonds". I was happy, but it was a case of real "bitter sweet". I had two children (one foster child, one my biological son) from my marriage - aged then probably around 15 and 17yrs. They too had suffered terribly and to my mind, most of all. I am very close to them still both in their forties, still single and living independantly with their own successful careers. And a much longer journey after that.

Some years after my priest theologian's death, I tried a vocation to monastic life again and realized with this attempt, that I had no vocation or call from God. I was striving to fulfill my own personal desires and truth be told (I now realize), to escape a very busy life in a suburb beset by every kind of social problem and at all ages in life. Leaving monastic life, I returned to that lifestyle. My priest theologian is long deceased - and after many years of reluctance by priests to direct me due to private vows and possibly also that I am a woman who suffers Bipolar Disorder (and I can understand their likely problems or 'where they are coming from') plus possibly the fact that I had left monastic life, I have had for over five years a religious and ex novice mistress in her Order directing me.

Edited July 4, 2012 by BarbaraTherese