A Question For Separated Brethren

[dUSt]

lumberjack,

You keep saying "I follow Christ"... Great! This is exactly why all of us Catholics are Catholic. We believe the Church is Christ's Body--the way He Himself instituted for us to come to Him.

When you say that you follow Christ, you'll get no argument from us. [b]That's exactly what we're ALL trying to do.[/b] That's our common goal!

So, the real question that we're all asking, is [b]how[/b] we know which is the best way to [b]follow Christ.[/b] I hate to jump to extremes, but it illustrates my point best. Was David Koresh following Christ? Are the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses following Christ? What about the guy sitting in his living room watching porn, believing that he was "saved" back in '84, so has nothing to worry about anymore?

Let's follow Christ brother. That's exactly what we need to do to someday be neighbors in Heaven. God bless.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 24 2004, 03:58 PM']
WHAT?!

hahaha

if relativism is so "strong"...how would that make it easy to swing from denom to denom?  wouldn't relativism make it harder?

social programs and dynamism of the pastor?

hahaha...sorry man, my pastor doesn't tell us anything near what we want to hear [url="http://www.therocksandiego.org"]the rock san diego[/url] , but hey, if that helps you sleep better and leave you convinced that all protestants are of the devil, ok...sure.

doctrine is absolutely essential...I don't know where you are from and allow me to apologize for the suburban religious social clubs, which are located everywhere, and in EVERY denom, including Catholicism...but hey, some people don't deal well with the truth.

I do pray for you likos.

God bless.

--------

oh, and Good Friday, ultimately...its because they say so.[/quote]
Lumberjack, this is to help you understand:

[b][i]RELATIVISM: any theory of knowledge, truth, or morality, etc., holding that criteria of judgment may vary with individuals and their environments.[/i][/b]

[Jay's explanation: With relativism, there are no absolutes. One culture, God, religion, country, philosophy, doctrine, worldview, moral system, whatever, is as good as any other. What's true for you may not be true for me, and my truth and yours, though antithetical, are equally "true." Everything is "true" or "good" or "useful" or whatever, relative to the POV of the individuals and their environments who are making the judgment, and their numbers are limitless. Therefore, there is no Capital "T" Truth.]

Lumberjack, You constantly misquote me. I challenge you to produce my statement that "Protestants are of the devil." I'm going to report you to the moderators every time you do this until you stop it -- or the mods stop you -- whichever comes first. Quote me accurately, using my own words, or don't quote me at all! This is malicious, slanderous, and immature behavior.

You can save your breath praying for me, Lumberjack. I was "born again" the Protestant way (which is not the biblical way) and I'm covered under OSAS (which is Martin Luther's invention), so my salvation is guaranteed, don'tchaknow?

And, oh, regarding your comment to Good Friday, the Church is infallible not because she says so, but because Christ says so -- that is, if you believe Jesus Christ.

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos (Jay)

[Katholikos]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 24 2004, 03:38 PM'] I'm the enemy, eh?

whoa...I don't know if I should feel honored or insulted.

well, here's where your logic and judging is faulty, likos.

I serve Christ.  -_-

and though I don't subscribe to the teachings that I think are wrong in the Catholic Church, you can't stop my beliefs or my faith or my continuing increase in the Lord and knowledge and wisdom...which I accredit somewhat to the wonderful people here at Phatmass.

were it not for questions, I would not dig and read and learn...but hey, you got your way, and I got mine.

walk it as Christ guides you.

God bless.

Christ first and only. [/quote]
Lumberjack,

Your egocentrism is showing. I was referring to the protestant denominations Mulls has joined.

Have you had this unfortunate inability to comprehend English all during your school years, or is it a condition that just recently developed?

JMJ Likos

Edited May 24, 2004 by Katholikos

[Good Friday]

[quote name='Katholikos']And, oh, regarding your comment to Good Friday, the Church is infallible not because she says so, but because Christ says so -- that is, if you believe Jesus Christ.[/quote]
Where does he say so?

Note to dUSt and mods: The above is a question, and thus cannot constitute Catholic vs. Catholic debate. Debate involves statements, I've not made any.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='May 24 2004, 05:52 PM'] [quote name='Katholikos']And, oh, regarding your comment to Good Friday, the Church is infallible not because she says so, but because Christ says so -- that is, if you believe Jesus Christ.[/quote]
Where does he say so?

Note to dUSt and mods: The above is a question, and thus cannot constitute Catholic vs. Catholic debate. Debate involves statements, I've not made any. [/quote]
[quote][b] Matthew 16: 15-19
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

[u]And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.[/u]

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." [/b][/quote]

You have never seen this?

[Good Friday]

[quote name='Jason']And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.[/quote]
What evidence is there that the Catholic Church is the church Jesus was talking about? Why not the Eastern Orthodox Church? Why does his statement = infallibility?

[Livin_the_MASS]

By this statement:

[b]"and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."[/b]

Christ founded One Church notice in this statement:

"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock [b]I will build my church[/b], and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."

It is His Church and we have over 2000 years to prove it ALL THE WAY

Much Love
In their Hearts
Jason

[Livin_the_MASS]

Note to everyone: I use big bold for things to stand out, I'm not screaming haha

[Good Friday]

[quote name='Jason']"and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."[/quote]
But why does that mean infallibility?

[quote name='Jason']It is His Church and we have over 2000 years to prove it[/quote]
Isn't the Eastern Orthodox Church also 2,000 years old? How do we know it's not the church Jesus was talking about?

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]But why does that mean infallibility?[/quote]

Think about it, is there any other Church that has stood by their teachings? No! There is not one, if they don't like it they build another one. The main thing is they deny the True Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist, Plus it has to be done by a Catholic Priest. In the 1600 it was the lack of faith in the Eucharist that caused the great split
Christ is making a promise that HIS Church [b]not more than one church[/b][u] just "HIS CHURCH" HE said![/u] Than He says evil will not prevail against HIS CHURCH, if this is not clear here look at the time line



[quote]Isn't the Eastern Orthodox Church also 2,000 years old? How do we know it's not the church Jesus was talking about?[/quote]

What a topic The Holy Father has called them the other lung of the Church I will let you dwell on that! You don't already know about this?

[mulls]

[quote name='Katholikos' date='May 24 2004, 06:50 PM'] I was referring to the protestant denominations Mulls has joined.
[/quote]
so what exactly are you trying to say? that i'm apart of the enemy? make yourself clear.


and be careful of what you report to moderators, with some of the things that you've said, the tables could easily be turned on the other side.

[foundsheep]

Take it easy folks.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 24 2004, 06:55 PM']
and be careful of what you report to moderators, with some of the things that you've said, the tables could easily be turned on the other side. [/quote]
Name one. Point it out to me and I'll be glad to report myself to the moderators. Let them decide if I'm guilty as charged. Show me and the phorum where I have misquoted you or Lumberjack.

Peace be to you and to all.

JMJ Likos

[mulls]

that's not my intention, just please be as careful as you wish others to be.


and please clear up my above question.

[the lumberjack]

dusty,

first off, I was praying for you brother...that your day got better and that the Lord just comfort you and keep you in His peace. God bless you. second,

[quote]lumberjack,

You keep saying "I follow Christ"... Great! This is exactly why all of us Catholics are Catholic. We believe the Church is Christ's Body--the way He Himself instituted for us to come to Him.

When you say that you follow Christ, you'll get no argument from us. That's exactly what we're ALL trying to do. That's our common goal!

So, the real question that we're all asking, is how we know which is the best way to follow Christ. I hate to jump to extremes, but it illustrates my point best. Was David Koresh following Christ? Are the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses following Christ? What about the guy sitting in his living room watching porn, believing that he was "saved" back in '84, so has nothing to worry about anymore?

Let's follow Christ brother. That's exactly what we need to do to someday be neighbors in Heaven. God bless.[/quote]

how do we know...hmmm...well, comparing one's openess with their doctrine to the way they live their life, and the fruits that you behold from them...that would be a pretty good sign, though who would really know the drive in their heart. the Lord will shed alight on the vipers trying to harm His flock, and they will be struck down... David Koresh? you know he wasn't...neither was Jim Jones, "heaven's gate" or any of the other cults...they were antichrists, here to lead away the faithful and to deceive those that didn't know Christ...I wish to deceive no one, I wish to learn, to discuss, to correct, and to be corrected. and though you and the most of the rest of the Catholics here will probly never heed any of the words I post, I can only put down what the Lord has put on my heart...

as for the mormons and the JW's? I'm sure that they'll have a HUGE part in the eventual one world religion that's laid out in the Bible...in the last last days...and they WILL have their day of reckoning with the Lord as well.

God bless brother.

and btw, get vinyl!

-------------

[quote]From what I have seen, evangelicals and indeed, most prots, easily go from denom to denom not because their aren't differences, but because they can reconcile the differences with their own "biblical" worldview. And they seem to do this by denying that absolute Truth can be known, or by accepting contrary inpterpretations. It strikes me as relativism.[/quote]

CW, first homie, till you experience what its like to go to my church and learn the way I do, lets not go off what we "see" unless you've got footage of something really wrong at my church...k? k..... moving on,

relativism...hmm... i can only come back to the most common and frequently encountered (by me) difference in doctrine...speaking in tongues. the bible says one thing, and yet they do another when they do it aloud, without an interpreter, or not according to the Scriptures.

or even how you pray in front of statues...

neither of these things will hinder either of you from entering heaven, though biblically, you're like a one legged man in a three legged race...almost, but not quite. now, don't get me wrong, I know I'm not perfect, but these are two of the biggest things out there I would have to say I'd overlook, so long as the brother or sister was following God. as I've said before, most of those brothers and sisters have realized that the Bible points out one thing while they were being taught another...but hey...its all good.

-------------

and likos...hmm...would you have me tarred and feathered? burnt at the stake? boiled in oil? original or extra crispy?

and you know, I have been known to be pretty egotistical...but most of the time, I'm pretty humble...I know I'm more humble that most of my friends...

there are absolutes...so relatively speaking, you're assuming that I'm just making my faith up as I go along...

God bless

[theculturewarrior]

[quote]relativism...hmm... i can only come back to the most common and frequently encountered (by me) difference in doctrine...speaking in tongues. the bible says one thing, and yet they do another when they do it aloud, without an interpreter, or not according to the Scriptures.
[/quote]

So you're saying protestants have a visible unity of doctrine (except for speaking in tongues)? That sounds like a lie! :angry: I have seen differences re: OSAS, the infallibility of the scriptures, the efficacy of baptism, the TRINITY, and EVEN PURGATORY!

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='May 24 2004, 06:52 PM'][quote name='Katholikos']And, oh, regarding your comment to Good Friday, the Church is infallible not because she says so, but because Christ says so -- that is, if you believe Jesus Christ.[/quote]
Where does he say so?

Note to dUSt and mods: The above is a question, and thus cannot constitute Catholic vs. Catholic debate. Debate involves statements, I've not made any.[/quote]
to Add what Jason had already put, and not having a Catholic-Catholic debate just putting my two cents. Plus, this isnt directed to Good Friday just going off his question..Jesus puts the stress on the Church when He mentions bringing a sinner to the Church '...if he doesnt listen to EVEN The Church, throw him out as if a tax collector'. Of course im paraphrasing but it was similar to this. He used the Church as the last and most important resort in his teaching there.

Scripture calls the Church the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

Notice it never says that the Scriptures are the Pillar of Truth.


But how do we know it was the Catholic Church?

In my humble opinion, I think this is the easiest to see.

Just a glimpse at the Early Church Fathers clears this up. Why cant they be Orthodox instead? Reading the Councils you can see that it was the Orthodox that left us.

I must note that besides the few issues I know about the Orthodox are still an Apostolic Church, there are only 2 in existance today - Catholic and Orthodox, each founded upon an Apostle, each teach similar things.

What gets me about some prots here is they think things like Infant Baptism, Real Presence, Confession, Theotokos and such are new and man made doctrines.
When in fact its always been the teachings. And the Orthodox Churchs believe the samethings as us.

Orthodox Churchs proclaim Mary as the Mother of God
They Confess to their Priests who grant them absolution
They believe Jesus is truely present in the Eucharist
They believe in Infant Baptism
They believe it is the CHURCH, not an individual, that has the Authority to Interpret Scriptures
They believe the Church is infallible in its teachings


Now I still believe that the Catholic Church is the One True Church, but the Orthodox Churchs are not that far off, only on a few things. They are not in Union with us as of now, but maybe they might come back and be full again in the Truth.

Its funny, and I bring this up, because almost all the prots I run into use the Orthodox against us, saying we left them and this and that..but what you all fail to realize is that the Orthodox are more similar to Catholics in our teachings than any prot would hope to be.

My point..Even looking at the Orthodox Church one can see that the Catholic Church's teachings have been around for 2000 years since they are pretty much the same. However, fast forward past 1500's and the 'New Kids on the Block', our protestant brothers and sisters, came up with a NEW way of thinking, a thinking called 'I can do it my way'..and its wrong and against what God wanted.

[Anna]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 24 2004, 05:38 PM'] I'm the enemy, eh?

whoa...I don't know if I should feel honored or insulted.

well, here's where your logic and judging is faulty, likos.

I serve Christ. -_-

..........

walk it as Christ guides you.

[/quote]
Feel embarassed.

This isn't about you, Lumberjack, though you seem to think it is, or would like it to be.

It's about Jesus Christ, His Truths, and the One True Church which He founded.

By Likos saying that mulls is running into the arms of Christ's enemies, he's saying that mulls is embracing errors rather than Truth....

...that is, unless he's been running into your arms lately, which, please...don't tell me...I don't wanna know....

Pax Christi. <><

[mulls]

[quote name='Anna' date='May 25 2004, 12:36 PM']
By Likos saying that mulls is running into the arms of Christ's enemies, he's saying that mulls is embracing errors rather than Truth....

...that is, unless he's been running into your arms lately, which, please...don't tell me...I don't wanna know....
[/quote]
oh no lumberjack, we've been caught!


our days of running into each others arms and making up our own infallible scripture interpretations (which are purely relative) seem to be coming to an end!!!



darn you phatmass.......darn you to heck!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='May 25 2004, 08:22 AM']
So you're saying protestants have a visible unity of doctrine (except for speaking in tongues)? That sounds like a lie! :angry: I have seen differences re: OSAS, the infallibility of the scriptures, the efficacy of baptism, the TRINITY, and EVEN PURGATORY! [/quote]
I never said that there was a visible doctrine of unity...but the slight differences in most of the Protestant denominations (at least the one's that are out here), aren't so big that you can't go and fellowship with them.

if thats relativism, then sure, why not...but those brothers that have a solid doctrine, go to them and exhort them to correction.

as I've said, most people don't know that their beliefs have actual names/tags associated with them, so to say OSAS to them would be fruitless.