Theories On Unity

[the lumberjack]

hahahaha "allowable cultural variations"?!?!?!

hahaha...exactly the same...EXCEPT for that.

please.

[dUSt]

lumberjack - You still have not addressed my question. Thx.

[socalscout]

[b]one answer would be[/b]

All Christians submit to the authority of the pope, and are unified under the universal Catholic Church.

[b]Or[/b]

All Christians submit to the authority of the pope, and are unified under the universal Catholic Church.
[b]
another way to go is[/b]

All Christians submit to the authority of the pope, and are unified under the universal Catholic Church.

[b]If that does not work then[/b]

All Christians submit to the authority of the pope, and are unified under the universal Catholic Church.

[b]but my favorite is[/b]

All Christians submit to the authority of the pope, and are unified under the universal Catholic Church.

[yesygerm]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 18 2004, 01:30 PM'] for starters...yes.

the things that go on in the Catholic churches around the world are not what you would think they are...and unless you've been to a Catholic church in, say, Jamaica, or Mexico, or any where else outside the states, you should seriously look into the amount of unity actually in the Catholic Church.

a lot of those churches are catholic only by name...

I was raised a good portion of my childhood in Mexico, and right across the street from my grandmother's house is a catholic church...and man...I don't think I ever heard Christ mentioned once the number of times I went.

it was ALL the virgen of guadlupe and juan diego and this idol and the other...NEVER CHRIST...ever.

God bless. [/quote]
peace be with you the lumberjack!

I am Mexican and have been to a many Roman Catholic Churches from the tip of Mexico, Tijuana, to Mexico City and Every time I attend mass Christ is mentioned. In fact, I just got back two weeks ago from Guadalajara and attended mass in the city of Talpa Jalisco and Christ was mentioned throughtout the entire mass.

The Catholic churchs being Catholic by name are only your opinion, but I have insight on things that go on in some Churches and it's really a blessing what Priests, Nuns, and the community do in the name of Christ. I should know, I have 2 cousins that are priests, Aunts that are nuns.


Peace be with you and I will pray for you,

VIVA CHRISTO REY!!!

[Aloysius]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 18 2004, 11:16 PM'] hahahaha "allowable cultural variations"?!?!?!

hahaha...exactly the same...EXCEPT for that.

please. [/quote]
you fail to understand, we're not talking the superficial stuff you emphasize when belittling the fact that we're seperated. you know, you're like oh well we have different this that and the other thing but we hold the same [sortof almost] basic tenents. well we have differences in the way we come together in different cultures but we hold the same exact faith, not merely a few basic tenents, but all doctrine of the Holy Apostolic Church centered in the city of the Holy Martyrs Peter and Paul.

yeah, some Catholics have disagreements. but good practicing Catholics always submit to the Apostolic Authority out of love of Truth and love of Jesus Christ who is Truth (certainly not out of some misguided exhaltation of a man). The Apostolic Bishops and especially the Pope do not have authority on their own, but authority because of their nature as APOSTLES. Apostle- one who is sent. Because they are sent by the Lord Jesus they have been granted the Holy Spirit which prevents them from bringing us error when their office of Apostolic Authority is fully utilized (which then must include the Petrine office of course) But all truly Catholic people subscribe to that doctrine, and thus, Catholics are unified in their belief because that doctrine binds all the rest together in one lump-sum of a Universal Sometimes the mexicans are just so caught up in love of God because of the amazing things He has done for them through His mother. They haven't had to deal with touchy wording and all that like we do in America. You know, like we have to watch what way we word things so it's exactly theologically correct otherwise a protestant will take it and completely misinterpret it. In some ways i envy the Mexicans. THey can show love for Our Lady without having to be so concerned that they mention "but of course I love Jesus more" they don't even have this poisonous heresy of imaging a popularity contest in heaven.

Pax Out.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 18 2004, 07:44 PM'] thing is dust, I'm not part of the Catholic Church...which according to the definition of the Catholic Church, I am damned to the fires reserved for the devil and his minions.

I proclaim Christ, and live for Him, regardless of what the Catholic Church institution may teach or say.

I know where my salvation lies...In Christ...not the Roman Catholic Church. [/quote]
You are really stuck on this aren't you. lol.

If you are baptised you are a member of the Body of Christ which is the Catholic Church.
You are not a formal member, but are in an inperfect relationship to her, therefore you may be saved.

The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 838

But there is only one Church founded by Jesus Christ who is the hope of your salvation.

The problem is it just kills you to think you are in someway joined to the Catholic Church.

[the lumberjack]

cmom, you're the best...much love babe!

I have no problem being part of the Holy Catholic Church of Christ.

just know that I will never submit to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church.

I will never pray to saints, or Saints, that have passed on from this life to the next.
I will never pray to Mary.
I will never use holy water.
I will never cross myself.

these are things that the Lord Christ Himself would have to change within me....things that I don't see Him ever changing.

so, if you still consider me a brother in Christ, I consider myself all the more blessed.

I continue in prayer for your separation from things that would distract and detract you from God, as I'm sure you do for me as well.

God bless.

[dUSt]

lumberjack, you have [b]still[/b] not addressed my question. Do you plan to? Thx.

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 19 2004, 11:44 AM'] I will never cross myself. [/quote]
Why do you think that making the sign of the cross is wrong?

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Those documents amarkich is quoting are re-affirming that Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. All who reject Christ's body will not have eternal salvation.

How is this different from what you believe?

Why do you fault the Church from re-affirming that it contains the fullness of truth found in God's Word, when you yourself would turn around and make the same affirmations about Christianity over, say, Islam or Judaism?[/quote]

you mean THIS question?

sorry, I know, I'm a jerk from time to time...

well...

everything that I've gathered from what has been expressed by those phatmassers here that post those things is that unless you are a consecrated Catholic Church catholic, you will go to your eternal reservation in the lake of fire...which I know that I won't be visiting any time in my immediate afterlife...

and yes, everyone that dies without Christ WILL go to hell and follow on to the lake of fire...but that will include a good portion of hypocrites in both the protestant camp AND the Catholic Church camp. believe that.

and I don't know if I completely understand your last ?...help pls...thanks.

God bless.

[IcePrincessKRS]

Thanks for the reminder, Mulls! Thats exactly what I was going to say!

Play nice y'all. I don't want to have to edit any more, this IS a good topic.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote][b]LJ says:[/b]
and I don't know if I completely understand your last ?...help pls...thanks[/quote]

Dust is talking about your other statement I think,


[quote][b]statement by LJ:[/b]

I will never pray to saints, or Saints, that have passed on from this life to the next.
I will never pray to Mary.
I will never use holy water.
[b]I will never cross myself.[/b][/quote]

I think Dust is asking why you feel you would not want to ever make the sign of the Cross?

Pax
Jason

[dUSt]

[quote]everything that I've gathered from what has been expressed by those phatmassers here that post those things is that unless you are a consecrated Catholic Church catholic, you will go to your eternal reservation in the lake of fire...which I know that I won't be visiting any time in my immediate afterlife...[/quote]
Okay, it's good to get different people's perspectives on things--but you seem to completely ignore the direct quote from the Catechism we've been showing you that says that if you believe in Christ, you are part of the Church--even though in an imperfect communion with her. Why do you do this?

[quote]and yes, everyone that dies without Christ WILL go to hell and follow on to the lake of fire...but that will include a good portion of hypocrites in both the protestant camp AND the Catholic Church camp.  believe that.[/quote]
Okay, I do. My point was that you condemn the Church for doing something that you yourself just did in your last sentence. Why the double standard? Is it okay for you to tell people that you cannot be saved without Christ, but it is wrong for the Church to do the same thing?

[Katholikos]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 18 2004, 11:16 PM']hahahaha  "allowable cultural variations"?!?!?!

hahaha...exactly the same...EXCEPT for that.

please.[/quote]
Lumberjack, it never occurred to me that you wouldn't understand what the term, "allowable cultural variations" means. So I'll explain. I was referring to non-essentials during the Holy Mass like the music that may be played, the instruments on which it may be played, precisely how the "kiss of peace" may be exchanged, and other regional expressions which may vary according to the many cultures there are throughout the world without affecting the validity of the Mass. Thus, a Mass is [u]essentially[/u] the same in Arizona as it is in Lisboa or Puebla or Puerto Peñasco.

The Mass is a [b][i]Sacrifice[/i][/b] -- a re-presentation of Christ's Sacrifice on Calvary. It is impossible for it [i]not[/i] to be Christ centered, as has been pointed out to you by others.

It's unfortunate that you are unable to "see" except through your own, narrow, distorted Protestant lens. Been there, done that.

Lord Jesus, may your Light shine in the darkness of our minds.

Our Lady of Guadalupe, pray for us.

I once was blind, but now I see.

JMJ Jay (Likos)

Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Okay, it's good to get different people's perspectives on things--but you seem to completely ignore the direct quote from the Catechism we've been showing you that says that if you believe in Christ, you are part of the Church--even though in an imperfect communion with her. Why do you do this?

Okay, I do. My point was that you condemn the Church for doing something that you yourself just did in your last sentence. Why the double standard? Is it okay for you to tell people that you cannot be saved without Christ, but it is wrong for the Church to do the same thing?[/quote]

dust,

I don't ignore that, and like I said, I'm fine with the fact that I'm not "in perfect communion" with the Catholic Church... but what has been stated, in my eyes, is that unless you are a Roman Catholic, you will not enter heaven

...and I am not a Roman Catholic...nor will I ever be a roman catholic...

so while you say I am part of the church, I'm not an official member...does this mean I'm saved according to the Catholic Church? or that I MIGHT be saved?

and in saying that if you die without Christ, I am saying exactly that. what I have read is that unless you are a part of the Catholic Church, you will go to hell...Christ or not.

this is why I say what I say...I say without Christ you go to hell, I've read from catholics here that without the Catholic Church you go to hell...thats all.

but don't get me wrong, I DO read and completely understand what you and cmom are telling me.

---------

and likos,

I really don't feel like getting into another discussion about the host. you do it one way, I do it another...Christ's sacrifice was once and for all, and I won't have any part in resacrificing Him over and over and over... and I still continue on in Christ, and you...in whoever you please...no disrespect meant...you just close every message in Mary...

God bless.

[Livin_the_MASS]

So are you saying you deny that Jesus Christ is Truly Present in the Holy Eucharist?

Why do you always act bent out of shape when someone talks about the Center of Our Faith.

[b]The Holy Eucharist is the source and summit of the Churchs Life. So it's going to be talked about alot.[/b]

So if you know all these things are you saying you [b]deny[/b] them:

Mary
The Saints
Tradition
The Pope
The Holy Eucharist
Being Obedient to The One Catholic Church
All The Sacraments

So if I understand you right that you understand these things but choose to do them your way, then what's up?

Signed confused

[Katholikos]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 19 2004, 11:44 AM']
just know that I will never submit to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church.

I will never pray to saints, or Saints, that have passed on from this life to the next.
I will never pray to Mary.
I will never use holy water.
I will never cross myself.

these are things that the Lord Christ Himself would have to change within me....things that I don't see Him ever changing.

[/quote]
This illustrates the "great divide" that exists between Protestantism and historic Christianity.

Israel is the People of God under the 'Old Covenant.' The Catholic Church is the New Israel (Galatians 6:16, Romans 11:26, James 1:1), the People of God under the New Covenant in Christ's blood (Luke 22:20). The Church grew out of the synagogue. In the beginning of the life of the Church, the apostles first attended the synagogue, then they met to celebrate the Mass (called "the breaking of the bread"). Many of the customs of the ancient Israelites became the customs of the first Christians by natural assimilation, one blended into the other. The Catholic Church is described by Jewish converts as "a Christian synagogue." If you've ever been to Shabbat services, the similarity is unmistakable.

The Jews used Holy Water. The first Christians used Holy Water because the apostles, who were Jews, used Holy Water. And the Catholic Church still uses Holy Water to this day, and will do so until the end of time. World without end, Amen.

The OT gives an example of one of the uses of Holy Water in ancient Israel: "And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord, and the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water." Numbers 6:16

Peace be to all.

JMJ Likos

[the lumberjack]

and here are likos and jason presenting more of their evidence...more reasons as to why I will never be RC...

and likos...it looks like they were using holy MUD, not holy water... your use of the Old Testament and Israel's Mosaic law to try to establish a reason for the new Catholic Church law/tradition is...well...iffy.

if you want to follow the Mosaic law, then do it...but don't set up a religious system that uses some and not all.

and jason gave a good point, the host is the center of your faith...as he said it is. again, I will not resacrifice Christ over and over and over...He laid His life down once and for all...and the effects of that sacrifice are felt throughout time...

I mean no offense at any of my posts, so please don't take it to heart if I seem harsh...

--------------

and dave put it well,

[quote]No, lumberjack, amarkich is reading said documents way too narrowly. The Catholic Church does NOT teach that non-Catholic Christians are automatically hellbound, nor has it ever done so. It would depend on their ignorance of the Catholic Church.[/quote]

so lets say I do learn a lot about the Catholic Church...does this then mean that I will go to hell? or does my apparent obstinance (sp? ) mean that I'm too dumb for my own good, and that I will go to heaven?

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]and jason gave a good point, the host is the center of your faith...as he said it is. again, I will not resacrifice Christ over and over and over...He laid His life down once and for all...and the effects of that sacrifice are felt throughout time...[/quote]

I agree that His Sacrifice was once and for all.

We do not re-sacrifice Jesus, [b]The One Sacrifice is Made Present at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, in an unbloody manner.[/b] Through the prayer of the priest invoking the Holy Spirit over the gifts of bread and wine. It becomes Jesus Christ Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

Does this make sense?

Pax

[cmotherofpirl]

Lumber you know perfectly well Jesus is not sacrified over and over again.
Why do you keep repeating this?