Nfp & Overpopulation

[Slappo]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1346471119' post='2477027']
Slappo, then you believe that God was shortsighted in his creation of the world, or mistaken in his command to be fruitful and multiply? I just do not get how anyone who believes in a God so powerful that he created a world and breathed into that world intelligent life could somehow leap to the conclusion that this all powerful God somehow miscalculated His creations, was so shortsighted that He could not foresee His creations killing the planet He made. Why would you limit God in this way ?

ed
[/quote]

Ed... this is basic science I'm talking about. At [b]some level of population [/b]the human population would exceed the sustainability of the Earth. Just look at basic mass, not even including resources. Can an infinite number of people live on Earth? Physically there would not be room, as the Earth does not have infinite space. Like I said, whether it's 6 billion or 100 billion trillion, there is a limit to the capacity of the Earth. I don't think this is any short sightedness on God's part. That's just silly. God did not make an earth that has infinite resources or infinite space. If he wanted to do that, he would have.

The question of if humanity will ever reach this population level is one that is entirely different. That's why the OP is speculative in nature.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1346782562' post='2478333']
Ed... this is basic science I'm talking about. At [b]some level of population [/b]the human population would exceed the sustainability of the Earth. Just look at basic mass, not even including resources. Can an infinite number of people live on Earth? Physically there would not be room, as the Earth does not have infinite space. Like I said, whether it's 6 billion or 100 billion trillion, there is a limit to the capacity of the Earth. I don't think this is any short sightedness on God's part. That's just silly. God did not make an earth that has infinite resources or infinite space. If he wanted to do that, he would have.

The question of if humanity will ever reach this population level is one that is entirely different. That's why the OP is speculative in nature.
[/quote]

I understood that it was a speculative post. Yet I trust in God. I believe that when giving His command to be fruitful and multiply he would have taken into consideration the nature of man, would have foreseen our fall, the war and famine, the natural disasters and yes even the abortion and genocides engaged in by his creations. I believe that God knows all and thence His will for us could not be affected by such lowly creatures as those He created to populate the earth. I also believe that those who believe they could alter God's plan by overpopulation are engaged in self flattery, the thought that somehow they, although they may realize it, believe that their actions could alter God's creation, which of course was designed by the ultimate infallible entity.

ed

[Jesus_lol]

Its a pretty simple and uncontestable statement to say that the earth cannot support an unlimited amount of people. Eventually, it would be too much, and long before that point there would be mass starvation and death.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1347243351' post='2480846']
Its a pretty simple and uncontestable statement to say that the earth cannot support an unlimited amount of people. Eventually, it would be too much, and long before that point there would be mass starvation and death.
[/quote]

The mass starvation and death might be the natural way for the human population to then decrease back to sustainable levels though. In that sense we would have overpopulation, but not overpopulation to the point of extinction. I think the rational minds God has given us would prevent humanity from self exctinction from something as simple as starvation or overpopulation. Now... nuclear warfare, mass genocide, and radiation poisoning might do it... but not overpopulation.



Since we really don't know what the actual end of times will look like, I think it's quite possible that it will come with the extinction of humanity or the destruction of the earth or the sun going supernova or something. Yes God is all knowing. That means he knows how the end of the world will come about, but that doesn't mean he didn't necessarily design it to come about in some sort of natural method.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1347387272' post='2481364']
The mass starvation and death might be the natural way for the human population to then decrease back to sustainable levels though. In that sense we would have overpopulation, but not overpopulation to the point of extinction. I think the rational minds God has given us would prevent humanity from self exctinction from something as simple as starvation or overpopulation. Now... nuclear warfare, mass genocide, and radiation poisoning might do it... but not overpopulation.
[/quote]
Overpopulation results in those things! famine - war - nuclear holocaust. So indirectly overpopulation could result in an extinction event by way of nuclear or irreparable pollution destruction of the eco sphere. Of course nuclear extinction could occur without overpopulation.



[quote]Since we really don't know what the actual end of times will look like, I think it's quite possible that it will come with the extinction of humanity or the destruction of the earth or the sun going supernova or something. Yes God is all knowing. [/quote]
Moot point, but I think the physics are that our star is not large enough to go supernova. It's destiny is a red giant where it will swallow up the inner planets but that's not predicted to happen for some considerable time. Our main threats are meteors, geo thermal events, changes in weather (ice cores show we are in a rare Goldilocks period) and mankind (nuclear, pollution and biological (zombies LOL)

[quote]That means he knows how the end of the world will come about, but that doesn't mean he didn't necessarily design it to come about in some sort of natural method.[/quote]
God created science and some of us believe that he created through his science which is his nature and so the end times most probably will be via a natural and inevitable event. We're pretty much sitting ducks in a shooting gallery. Somewhere out there amongst the thousands of asteroids is one with our name on it. What will happen to America, when not if Yellowstone blows it's top?

Sorry I seem to be in a rambling mood this morning.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1346366459' post='2476442']
Regardless of how over or underpopulated we are at present, there is a number of people that the earth will be able to sufficiently sustain. Be it 10 billion 1 trillion or 100 trillion. The earth doesn't have infinite resources. As world population grew exponentially in the last two centuries, if population growth rates continued to grow exponentially over the next few hundred years there might be serious problems.

I wonder if humanity can actually hit overpopulation or if the life cycle of humanity and the earth will naturally sort things out or if the end of time would come before we hit such limitations.
[/quote]

Population isn't the issue. It's productivity. We will find ways to make our agriculture more productive, extend our natural resources, and find new fuel sources. When the demand shows up, the supply will be provided.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' timestamp='1347422709' post='2481567']
Population isn't the issue. It's productivity. We will find ways to make our agriculture more productive, extend our natural resources, and find new fuel sources. When the demand shows up, the supply will be provided.
[/quote]

and you somehow think this process wont have an upper limit?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1347498968' post='2481845']
and you somehow think this process wont have an upper limit?
[/quote]

Aw man, L_D was telling me the trippiest stuff about the potential of human development if we were able to properly utilize... I think it was thorium, as an energy source.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1347498968' post='2481845']
and you somehow think this process wont have an upper limit?
[/quote]

Why would it? As we encounter new problems, we will find new solutions.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1347500802' post='2481865']
Aw man, L_D was telling me the trippiest stuff about the potential of human development if we were able to properly utilize... I think it was thorium, as an energy source.
[/quote]
Vulcans are incredibly knowledgeable and insightful.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' timestamp='1347501467' post='2481873']
Why would it? As we encounter new problems, we will find new solutions.
[/quote]
And if we don't, nature will.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1347576682' post='2482140']
And if we don't, nature will.
[/quote]

Being made in the image of God includes our creativity.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' timestamp='1347924087' post='2483476']
Being made in the image of God includes our creativity.
[/quote]
To mention one, Africa has always controlled it's population by natural means. I don't know the mind of God, so maybe he has plans that there will be people who will be creative enough to prevent this happening to the whole world. But then maybe not, it's happened in the past. I pray you're right.

[XIX]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1347925106' post='2483484']
To mention one, Africa has always controlled it's population by natural means. I don't know the mind of God, so maybe he has plans that there will be people who will be creative enough to prevent this happening to the whole world. But then maybe not, it's happened in the past. I pray you're right.
[/quote]
Africa is controlling its population?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='XIX' timestamp='1347973878' post='2483690']
Africa is controlling its population?
[/quote]
By natural means- Wars, famine and disease. The discussion has been about managing our resources and population intelligently and creatively.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Basilisa Marie]

I think the biggest problem is that the nations (and cultures, really) that consume the most resources are the ones with the most creative means to encourage proper stewardship of our resources, but they're also the ones who are too greedy and lazy to do so.

It's like how in the USA, the hybrid electric car industry hasn't really gotten off the ground in any real capacity, because the auto industry won't put forth the initial capital (a huge amount of money, really) to make the technology affordable and convenient to the average car owner. If I was looking to purchase a new car, I'd love to get one that ran on mostly electricity, for all sorts of environmentally conscious reasons. But the thing is that there aren't very many electric charger stations, and most cars can really only go about 50 miles on one charge. So even if I installed a charger in my garage, I could only travel a 25 mile radius before coming home. Plus the cars are super expensive, because the companies need to return on their investment in the technology. So not only are the ones at the corporate top more interested in lots of profit than environmental stewardship (hard to blame them, but they're the ones with the power), but even if I want to purchase an environmentally-friendly car, I can't, because it's not only too expensive but it doesn't fit my driving needs.

Sure, that doesn't mean I shouldn't recycle, buy used clothes, donate to famine-relief organizations or turn off lights when I'm not using them. I can still take some responsibility for proper stewardship of resources. But the people with the most power to make the biggest impact aren't interested.

[Slappo]

Go green, it's cheaper! Cloth diapers, high mpg cars, LED light bulbs, re-usable water bottles, water filtration systems rather than plastic water bottles...

I thought that electric cars got more like 100-150 miles before needing recharged though. 50 would seem pretty darn pointless! Just looked them up, it looks like 65-100 is the range. Still pretty darn low... that's three days of commuting back and forth to work for me... There's one that Toyota came out with that is mostly electric with fuel that kicks in after 35 miles of electric to get a max 260 miles out of the charge - that seems like it might work well for those that forget to charge or have to go a little further on a commute. Hopefully in future years we'll see a decline in prices on these fuel efficient or electric cars.

[PhuturePriest]

My town "went green" after the tornado. I promise you green is not cheaper. Houses that should be fifty thousand are three hundred thousand because they "went green". We spent fifty five million dollars on our school for two hundred students because we "went green". Green is not cheaper, it's ridiculous. Recycle if you want, go to a thrift store, reuse plastic bottles, whatever. But no one on earth can tell me "green" isn't a code word for "You'll be spending ten times the green".

[sixpence]

So there seems to be some agreement between all of us that stewardship of the earth is important. (I think?)
-What does this entail?
-What if you live in a resource poor area (ex. places with water resource problems)? What if by living there you are degrading the area even further? And this will only be multiplied by having children. Are you moral obligated to move? What if you cannot afford it?

random silly thought: If God wants to control the population, he should just call more people to religious life

[Slappo]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1348079833' post='2484240']
My town "went green" after the tornado. I promise you green is not cheaper. Houses that should be fifty thousand are three hundred thousand because they "went green". We spent fifty five million dollars on our school for two hundred students because we "went green". Green is not cheaper, it's ridiculous. Recycle if you want, go to a thrift store, reuse plastic bottles, whatever. But no one on earth can tell me "green" isn't a code word for "You'll be spending ten times the green".
[/quote]

Are you kidding me? The upfront costs of energy efficiency are more, but long term costs are where you save tons of money. Of course spending 5 million dollars more for the infrastructure necessary for geo-thermal heating is going to make a building both cost more and more valuable. The 500ks a year you save in oil re-coups that initial investment over 10 years and every year after that you are making bank in savings.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1348087266' post='2484306']
Are you kidding me? The upfront costs of energy efficiency are more, but long term costs are where you save tons of money. Of course spending 5 million dollars more for the infrastructure necessary for geo-thermal heating is going to make a building both cost more and more valuable. The 500ks a year you save in oil re-coups that initial investment over 10 years and every year after that you are making bank in savings.
[/quote]

Well at least that is how it is supposed to work, in theory. For a variety of reasons it will not always be the case. You will know that as an accountant. Or did you sleep through your net present value courses?