Fr. Benedict Groeschel - Child Abuse Comments

[To Jesus Through Mary]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1346447149' post='2476893']
I almost agree 100%. Ultimately the bulk of the responsibility is on the older, more mature, adult who has more responsibility and obligation. Especially a person in authority such as a priest, teacher, coach, boss, etc. Adults with reasonable mental capacity are not seduced by children or teens. Period. The youth may share a minute amount of blame, but it's insignificant compared to an adult capable of being a teacher or priest.

I would think Fr G's remarks were muddled by poor health and old age. Im of the opinion the "journalist and editor" intentionally entrapped an old person in poor health to gin up a controversial story. Very sad. But there is no defending his remarks and Fr G is right in not defending them and apologizing for his misspoken words. Too bad his apology won't be accepted and his remarks dismissed as a mistake of human frailty as they should be.
[/quote]

For the record I love Fr G. His books have helped my healing process very much. I have heard him speak many times. I certainly don't think the comments reflect his beliefs. I, with so many, realize it was an old confused man. He may have meant it but in context with something else. Like a 1/2 thought kind of thing and it came out wrong. He is a very good man. I pray this passes over very quickly. He has done so much good for those who have suffered abuse, especially the poor.

Edited August 31, 2012 by To Jesus Through Mary

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='To Jesus Through Mary' timestamp='1346447447' post='2476900']
No- I am not saying that at all. I would strongly encourage you to confess. You are of the age of reason, you are able to sin.

What I am speaking of is abuse. What that guy at Penn State to those boys was abuse. Even if they "seduced" him. It is still gravel disordered and the adult would still be most culpable for the vile relationship. Those boys did not deserve to be abused (and an adult having sexual relations with a child should be called) or have their dignity attack. The boys may have sinned but they are not at fault for the adults actions or the "relationship"
[/quote]

Okay. Thank you for that. I was trying to figure out if not being culpable meant for you that they did not sin themselves. The clarification allows everything to make sense now.

[To Jesus Through Mary]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1346447636' post='2476903']
I think that what is meant is that the issue is not as black and white as the media makes it out to be. They ascribe to Catholic priests a nature that is not realistic; one in which priests just wake up in the morning and say "Let's go abuse some kids!" And they expect of Catholic priests a nature which is not human; one in which they never fall to temptation.

I do not think anyone is saying that people who are abused deserved to be. Just because someone is a temptation, doesn't mean they get the blame when the person they tempted falls or that that other person shouldn't be held culpable for their own actions. [i]But they can still be a temptation.[/i] I think Father's point...if he had a point at all...was that priests are tempted just like everyone else, and they fall to temptation just like everyone else. We cannot expect some inhuman reaction from them. We (as a society) do not expect it from laymen. Yet we expect it from priests, and act [url="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jennifer-fulwiler/for-the-childrens-sake-these-stereotypes-about-priests-must-stop"]like it is some novelty that they alone possess[/url].

I don't think it was a statement about those being abused so much as it was pointing out the fact that priests are human like everybody else and we are rather silly to expect something super-human from them.
[/quote]

First, the priest that abuse kids are pedophiles. Most priest are not. And most pedophiles are not priest.

I would argue that a pedophile normally does have intention in mind when he is engaging a child. It is a whole other ball game with say an adult woman and a priest. I am not saying priest or that Penn State guy should be super human. But I am saying regardless of how intense the temptation they should never abuse children. God will always give the grace necessary not to sin. If a 15 yr old kid tried and seduced me, I don't are how lonely I was I could resist. Not to mention I would never put myself in that situation. Say one of my Confirmation kids tried to hit on me, I would have a higher obligation to handle the situation with complete purity and chastity.

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='To Jesus Through Mary' timestamp='1346448068' post='2476910']
First, the priest that abuse kids are pedophiles. Most priest are not. And most pedophiles are not priest.

I would argue that a pedophile normally does have intention in mind when he is engaging a child. It is a whole other ball game with say an adult woman and a priest. I am not saying priest or that Penn State guy should be super human. But I am saying regardless of how intense the temptation they should never abuse children. God will always give the grace necessary not to sin. If a 15 yr old kid tried and seduced me, I don't are how lonely I was I could resist. Not to mention I would never put myself in that situation. Say one of my Confirmation kids tried to hit on me, I would have a higher obligation to handle the situation with complete purity and chastity.
[/quote]


I think you missed my point. I said, "[It] doesn't mean that that other person [the abuser] shouldn't be held culpable for their own actions."

My point was that we as a society expect a perfection from priests that we do not expect from laypeople. Please read the link I gave.
As Father said, "Here's this poor guy — [Penn State football coach Jerry] Sandusky — it went on for years. Interesting: [b][i]Why didn't anyone say anything?"[/i][/b]
I do think it silly the way this sort of thing is made out to be a Catholic thing, when it is a human thing. That's not an excuse for anyone, it is criticism of the bias.

And pedophilia is very, very rare. Not all kids who are abused are abused by pedophiles.

[beatitude]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1346444526' post='2476860']
I agree that they are in the wrong, but I also think the minor could also in theory be in the wrong. Why else am I morally obligated to confess every mortal sin I have committed if I get a free pass with "Sorry, I'm not quite 100% yet."?
[/quote]

I think you are missing the point here by trying to insert yourself into the situation, where you don't belong. We're not talking about you and your sexual temptations. Most people have those...but [b]most people do not go on to commit child abuse.[/b]

You seem very keen to apportion blame to the supposed young 'seducers' (and this really does lead down a nasty path to victim-blaming) while excusing the priests. You [i]are[/i] excusing the priests, even if you throw in a token, "Of course it was wrong." The difference between a priest breaking his vows with a person of the same age and breaking them with a teenager is that he has power over that teenager. Adults have more power than minors. This also means that we have a lot more responsibility.

When we talk about teenagers 'not being 100%', we don't mean that they aren't capable of reason or that they get a pass on everything. We mean that when it comes to their own developing sexuality, they can lack maturity to understand it. (This could be said of you too - this knowledge doesn't just consist of 'sex outside marriage is wrong', which is the prism you seem to be viewing it from.) A good and mature understanding of human sexuality comes through healthy, respectful friendships on equal terms - which can never exist between a minor and a person in a position of authority over that minor, because the 'equal' is missing. But some teenagers may not be able to grasp that, due to the very teenage tendency to imagine yourself as much more mature and worldly-wise than you are. In that situation it's the adult's responsibility not to abusively take advantage.

[arfink]

I understand that adults need to be more responsible and abuse of minors is never justified, ever, under any circumstances, period.

However, I have noted, in my travels to some of the seedier parts of the internet, that there is a subclass of teenagers who take great pleasure in intentionally tempting adults, and making themselves into "jailbait" as they say. They know not what harm they bring to themselves and others, I fear.

[To Jesus Through Mary]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1346448653' post='2476917']
I think you missed my point. I said, "[It] doesn't mean that that other person [the abuser] shouldn't be held culpable for their own actions."

My point was that we as a society expect a perfection from priests that we do not expect from laypeople. Please read the link I gave.
As Father said, "Here's this poor guy — [Penn State football coach Jerry] Sandusky — it went on for years. Interesting: [b][i]Why didn't anyone say anything?"[/i][/b]
I do think it silly the way this sort of thing is made out to be a Catholic thing, when it is a human thing. That's not an excuse for anyone, it is criticism of the bias.

And pedophilia is very, very rare. Not all kids who are abused are abused by pedophiles.
[/quote]

You're right I did miss your point. Sorry I re-read your post and the article. It does make much more sense. I am apparently getting to heated to think logically. I am with you it is a human thing not a Catholic thing. There of course is a bias against priests and the Church. There always has been. I agree, it is not fair. Precentage wise we know that to be true as well. I agree with you wholeheartedly there. I still cannot in anyway agree with his statements

As for why someone didn't say something? If he was referring to the boys, many abuse victims don't speak up for years, even if it happens for an extended period of time. There is a grooming process. They find out a lot about the minor, ways to manipulate them, where their weaknesses are (As Fr G rightly pointed out looking for a father figure). I heard it described once as a person dying of thirst in the desert and they are offered a refreshing cup of water. But the water turns out to be urine. There is an intense shame, that is describable, and a very strange and disordered attachment that can grow for the abuser. It isn't simple. I know Fr G knows that. That is why I am sure there was more to his thought then he actually said. I also find it hard to believe he actually said a 1st time offender shouldn't go to jail. I know he believes in justice.

As an aside, IMO pedophilia is unfortunately not as rare as one might think.

[cappie]

About Fr Benedict I have no comment. I just want to add:

Any attempt to sexualise a pastoral relationship is a breach of trust, an abuse of authority, and professional misconduct.

Any form of sexual behaviour with a minor or adolescent is always sexual abuse.

Such behaviour is both immoral and criminal. Clergy, members of religious orders, and others who work in the name of the Church are in a special position of trust and authority in relation to those who are in their pastoral care, including: parishioners, people seeking advice, the sick, people with a disability, school students

Edited August 31, 2012 by cappie

[Annie12]

Question: did EWTN issue any comments on this matter?

[Ed Normile]

Fr. Groeschel is only a human, prone to weakness and failings and is fallible. My grannie was 83 years old and one morning me and my dad, her only son to live and four sisters, me and dad walked in to visit her. My dad being 6'4" and red haired and me being 5'10" and brown haired it was surprising when my grannie hugged me and said to me " Edward my beautiful son, who is this strange man you have brought to my home ? " within two weeks she was diagnosed with Senile Dementia and 2 months later she had progressed to the point she needed placed in a nursing home with full care. Two months after that she fell out of bed during the night striking her head and before they noticed her she bled to death on the floor.

I hope this is not the case with this great man and Priest, lets try and keep our comments to prayers for him, please.

ed

[mortify]

The propaganda machine churns


[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08xCz0gjq18"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08xCz0gjq18[/url]

[4588686]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1346441462' post='2476818']
You're right, but that's exactly my point. Pimsleur Russian doesn't deserve the response he's gotten.
[/quote]

Yes he does. That's exactly what he deserves for the stupid, thoughtless thing he said, in public, as a highly respected religious leader. Does it mean that he's an evil person? Obviously not. He may be slipping a bit. But if you say something like this and refers to Sandusky as 'this poor guy' it really reinforces the idea of an upper echelon within the Catholic Church which has incredibly perverse views about Priests and child sex abuse.

[4588686]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1346594799' post='2477575']
The propaganda machine churns


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08xCz0gjq18[/media]
[/quote]


Yes. How dare her report what he said and ask completely and perfectly legitimate questions about what he said and how that may be related to his work teaching pastoral counselling and running a home for troubled boys. That shame shame.

[mortify]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346596362' post='2477578']
Yes. How dare her report what he said and ask completely and perfectly legitimate questions about what he said and how that may be related to his work teaching pastoral counselling and running a home for troubled boys. That shame shame.
[/quote]

What you call "reporting" is a crafty manipulation of information to mold public perception. I suggest you acquaint yourself with the works of Noam Chomsky, e.g. [i]Manufacturing Consent, Propaganda[/i].

[4588686]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1346599953' post='2477584']
What you call "reporting" is a crafty manipulation of information to mold public perception. I suggest you acquaint yourself with the works of Noam Chomsky, e.g. [i]Manufacturing Consent, Propaganda[/i].
[/quote]


I've read Chomsky. He actually criticizes news-stories and systematic misrepresentations of a class of stories. Does that apply to the Catholic Church in the news? Sure. Both pro and con. Your taking an argument about systematic distortion in the news on a macro level and using that systematic criticism to discredit a particular story on nothing more than your flimsy argument that 'some stories are systematically misrepresented in the some major elements of the American. This is a news story. Therefore it is propaganda'. That's an invalid logical form and intellectually lazy. What was wrong with this particular story?

[Nihil Obstat]

So it appears today that Fr. Groeschel [url="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/father-groeschel-steps-down-from-ewtn-show/"]has stepped down[/url] from EWTN.

Seems to be a good move. If this weird comment is partially because of his recent injury, then it would be irresponsible of him to continue in a position where he might do the same thing again, and it would be irresponsible of his religious community to allow him to continue. He should rest and recuperate and, if possible, get back to a point where his mind is working clearly again.

[emmaberry]

This thread makes me sad-not the OP, but just what has happened to this poor servant of God.

As humiliating as aging can be, I have a feeling that it is designed by God to prepare our soul for death by increasing our humility. What a humbling/humiliating experience for Father.. I am sad to see him resign, but glad that it will diminish the chances of something similar occurring again.

[PhuturePriest]

I was afraid something like that would happen. I hope he comes back again soon.

[4588686]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1346829157' post='2478669']
This thread makes me sad-not the OP, but just what has happened to this poor servant of God.

As humiliating as aging can be, I have a feeling that it is designed by God to prepare our soul for death by increasing our humility. What a humbling/humiliating experience for Father.. I am sad to see him resign, but glad that it will diminish the chances of something similar occurring again.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, but I guess this type of response intimates WHY the systemic abuse was allowed to occur for so long. I have not seen ANYBODY here question if perhaps these really are/were his views. I see everybody talking about the poor Fr. but I see nobody going "oh poo, this man taught pastoral care to prospective Priests and ran a boys home for years and years, is there a chance he really believes this stuff?!" All I see are excuses. Which is understandable. I understand how emotionally attached Catholics get to their Priests. But I think this exemplifies where the failure occurred. People are so eager to jump to the defense of a Priest and so slow to seriously question probe what his views really are it pretty disturbing. Maybe the Fr. is just slipping. But he said that his way of expressing himself is slipping but offered no clarification of what he *wanted* to say. Why are people just taking him at his word that he somehow misspoke? He didn't claim to misspeak until after he got in trouble, then he suddenly played the old man card.

I don't have any animus towards Fr. Groeschel. When I was younger I wanted to be in his order. And he has done a lot of good in his life. But he seemed pretty lucid in his response. And given what he said and what positions he occupied within the Church I think that people kind of owe it to the kiddies to actually do a bit more digging than 'well once he got in trouble he said he didn't express himself correctly, and he has no reason to lie, so case closed, poor Fr. Benedict ;'( "

[4588686]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1346443264' post='2476831']
High school girls come on to young male teachers quite frequently, you can't tell me they don't know exactly what they are doing....
[/quote]


Wow. It's strange that people have lost faith in the Church in the wake of the abuse scandal given comments like these. I agree. A 14 year old is definitely old enough to really understand the emotional and psychological harm that can come from engaging in sex before they are ready for it.