Carmels With 6 - 12 Month Postulancy & 1 Year Novitiate

[Chiquitunga]

Praised be Jesus Christ! Just thought I'd start a new thread for this to make it easier to answer the question directly .. and then others can contribute who know Carmels that I don't (like the Canadian Carmels)

[quote name='Graciela' timestamp='1348182518' post='2484766']
I would like to develop a list of Discalced Carmelite Monasteries in the US and Canada that have a 6 moth to 1 year postulancy and a one year novitiate. The majority seem to have 1 year postulancy and 2 years of novitiate before first profession.

Dallas is one that seems to have the 1 year novitiate, but I am unsure of their postulancy.

Perhaps also Des Plaines and the one in Armstrong, B.C. ?

Others, please? Is this a 1990 vs 1991 constitutions difference?
[/quote]

First, to answer the last question, I have never seen a 1991 Carmel with a 6 - 12 month postulancy & 1 year Novitiate.. although I have seen 1990 Carmels with a 1 year postulancy and 2 year novitiate (a few that come to mind are Lake Elmo, MN - Iron Mountain, MI & Pittsford, NY) So I wouldn't say it's really a 1990 vs 1991 thing (maybe [i]some[/i]what though)

In both Dallas and Des Plaines a 6 month postulancy is the norm. Heard that from two different people who entered them.

So a list ..

[u]Carmels I can think of with a [b]6 - 12 month postulancy & 1 year Novitiate (all 1990)[/b][/u]

Alexandria, SD
Buffalo, NY
Brooklyn, NY
Canyon, CA
Dallas, TX
Des Plaines, IL
Elysburg, PA
Littleton, CO
Valparaiso, NE


[u]Carmels with a [b]6 - 12 month postulancy & 1 - 2 year Novitiate[/b][/u]

Georgetown, CA (1990 but under Father General)
Wichita, KS (1990)


And finally one more variation I'll add here, Traverse City has a 6 - 12 month postulancy but 24 month novitiate.


Goodnight & God bless!

Edited September 21, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[OnlySunshine]

Chiqui, I did some research because I was sure that I had seen at least 1 monastery that follows the 1991 Constitutions and has a short postulancy and novitiate. Here's what I found:

[url="http://www.carmelspall.org/Vocations.htm"]Carmelite Nuns of Armstrong, B.C.[/url]
--[i][font="Georgia"]The formation period consists in three main stages: postulancy from six months to one year, novitiate from one year to two years, and temporary profession for three years. The length of these stages varies somewhat from monastery to monastery. [/font][/i]

[ACS67]

Thanks for the information Chiq! Now I have to ask some questions: What happens after the 1 year novitiate? Temporary vows? Is she still technically a "Novice" or no? (probably not) Does she still wear the white veil?

This is all very new to me as I am more familiar with the Franciscan way of formation, i.e. 1 year postulancy, 2 year novitiate and then temporary vows but receives black veil.

[truthfinder]

In just about all Carmels, the novices and temporary professed wear the white veil. They receive the black veil at final profession. Before reforms, the reception of the black veil was actually done after and more publicly than making vows and sometimes several days later.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='truthfinder' timestamp='1348243716' post='2485052']
In just about all Carmels, the novices and temporary professed wear the white veil. They receive the black veil at final profession. Before reforms, the reception of the black veil was actually done after and more publicly than making vows and sometimes several days later.
[/quote]
Yes, I noticed that too in this OCD Ritual I have from the 1930's .. it was a separate ceremony. Now it is done together, so it is often termed "Solemn Profession and Veiling" like this thread, [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/121104-carmelite-solemn-profession-and-veiling/"]http://www.phatmass....on-and-veiling/[/url]

And, yes as far as I know, all OCD Carmels give the black veil at Solemn Profession.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1348233757' post='2485009']
Thanks for the information Chiq! Now I have to ask some questions: What happens after the 1 year novitiate? Temporary vows? Is she still technically a "Novice" or no? (probably not) Does she still wear the white veil?

This is all very new to me as I am more familiar with the Franciscan way of formation, i.e. 1 year postulancy, 2 year novitiate and then temporary vows but receives black veil.
[/quote]
Yes, after the novitiate are the temporary vows, and no, she is not considered a Novice after that (though she still looks like one with the white veil) but First Professed. In most Carmels I've seen, the First Professed remain in the novitiate for two years and move out the final year to live with the Solemn Professed.

[Graciela]

Some Carmels call the temporary professed sisters, still in white veils, "professed novices".

Thanks for the helpful information in response to my question.

[Gemma]

An OCD prioress is raising an eyebrow with this thread. She is not understanding why such a list would be compiled, and is wondering if women discerning Carmel are going to base their decisions on such information, which is not a good thing.

The 1990 Constitutions take their points on the novitiate straight from canon law. The novitiates for the 1990s can sometimes be lacking, because nobody has produced a ratio specifically for the 1990s.

The 1991, OTOH, have a ratio, and more details regarding the formation in their constitutions.

Aspriancies are taking longer because the faithful have become too secularized. Hence the reason for lay associations which cater to the needs of discerners. If young, give yourself 10 years to shed the world, and bone up on the classics, Magisterial documents, and scripture.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Chiquitunga]

I wouldn't choose to enter or not enter a Carmel based on formation time at all. I think the question raised by Graciela was more a research type question, not for discernment. I started the thread to answer it directly, as things were getting complicated in the other thread.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[emmaberry101]

[color=#222222][font='Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]

[i]My 'emmaberry' account is not letting me post on this topic.[/i]

Gemma, I agree that VS is crawling with information that discerners could make superficial decisions on, which is not ideal. Discernment is about finding what God wants, and there is a danger with all the information compiled on this phorum to forget that important fact. However, the same thing has been said about so many beneficial (and just plain fun!) threads, like the Wedding Dress thread among many others. These threads raised some eyebrows because they saw a danger of girls going where the wedding dresses are based on feelings or some fond romantic notions. In short, it's worth it for discerners to have the information on threads like this in VS, and/or it could only be for research purposes as Chiquitunga said.

Also, there are so many Carmels in the US, that you have to narrow them down somehow! Visiting even a large portion of them would cost a small fortune. [/background][/size][/font][/color]

[TIWW]

Many communities have different terminology for the various stages in Religious life.
Commonly, Postulancy is 6 -12 months ( for women's communities )
Novitiate 1-2 years, and Simple vows, temporary vows or Juniorate can be from 3-5 years.

Traditions from Poor Clares, Trappistines or Carmelites can be unique to their charism, and even within the house, things can vary. It can not be stressed enough that no matter what, each house establishes it's own tradition over time. Also there are special circumstances. If someone transfers into a community from another, where they have already made simple or solumn vows, things will depend on the formation director and particular Sister and formation team. The other piece always part of this process, "is the Person in formation a good fit with the particular community or the community for the candidate". As we have seen on this forum, several Sisters felt they had found their perfect place in Religious life, and the Formator or community thought otherwise.

[maximillion]

My three pence worth, as far as I can see from reading posts on VS, is that once someone experiences that sense that they are at home, spiritually, emotionally and apostolic wise, the details almost become irrelevant.
Some who were convinced for the cloister found it not so, others were for an active apostolate, then found Him in the cloister. 6 months, 12 months, 20 years, it would IMO make no difference, and we all know people who enter in the face of overwhelming difficulties of one sort or another.
Peeps may start out saying this constitution or that one, this horarium or that one, these devotions, in Latin or not etc etc, but in the end most of these temporal differences count as nothing as when we see His Face and hear His Voice.
I also think that even for those who are not mature enough yet[i] not [/i]to go on the externals, He can and does use this. Yup. Even the wedding dresses!

[TIWW]

So agree PM Alien. It is the "Interior" place of the Mind and Heart with Christ that matters. Another huge factor in Religious Life today, which differs from even 20 years ago is that today's youth live in an electronic world. Cell phones, the Internet, IPads IPhones, constant sounds of background noise, of music and TV, the luxury of instant gratification are not part of the Nun's world, particularly in enclosed communities. This world ends one the threshold of Religious Life is crossed. That is a significant adjustment to make. It will not take 6 months to determine if one can adapt to that. When a discerner can spend 3 months or so doing in a "Live In" experience, it really is a gift in terms of knowing what joys and difficulties make up the Life, and if one can adapt, or the community observes that one may really really called.

[Laudem Gloriae]

[quote name='emmaberry101' timestamp='1348875108' post='2487762']


[color=#222222][font=Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][i]My 'emmaberry' account is not letting me post on this topic.[/i]

Gemma, I agree that VS is crawling with information that discerners could make superficial decisions on, which is not ideal. Discernment is about finding what God wants, and there is a danger with all the information compiled on this phorum to forget that important fact. However, the same thing has been said about so many beneficial (and just plain fun!) threads, like the Wedding Dress thread among many others. These threads raised some eyebrows because they saw a danger of girls going where the wedding dresses are based on feelings or some fond romantic notions. In short, it's worth it for discerners to have the information on threads like this in VS, and/or it could only be for research purposes as Chiquitunga said.

Also, there are so many Carmels in the US, that you have to narrow them down somehow! Visiting even a large portion of them would cost a small fortune. [/background][/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]

I agree mostly but then if someone is looking at only the superficial perhaps they are immature and superficial and should wait on discerning. But at the same time God calls people to orders in this way. I have had many nuns from a Domincan monastery, Carmels and PCCs tell me they were attracted by the habit, etc.

I just finished reading a book on the life of St. John of the Cross where in the beginning when he was trying to find the order God wanted him he was having a hard time as he like the Dominicans, Augustinians, Franciscans, etc but the minute he saw a Carmelite in his habit, he knew he was to be a Carmelite. I don't think anyone dare call superficial or being led by externals.

God leads us to the orders he desires for us by often silly or extern ways. God knows our hearts and what appeals to us. Just as God granted little St. Therese's wish for snow on her clothing day - having snow is whimsical, and not important in the long run but to St. Therese it was and God granted snow out of season for her. It's like s ometimes God hooks you with an external, superficial aspect of an order or community and once He has your attention, He opens your heart and mind to the rest - and some are hooked by the charism, essence of the order itself.


As to Gemma's mentioning this:[b][i] "An OCD prioress is raising an eyebrow with this thread. She is not understanding why such a list would be compiled, and is wondering if women discerning Carmel are going to base their decisions on such information, which is not a good thing."[/i][/b] - Out of visiting and writing (email or snail mail) 1990 Carmels here in the US and the UK and hearing from another who has even more contact with 1990 Carmels, these 1990 prioresses never HEARD of, read or follow PM or other vocation forums - they don't spend their precious time on the internet when they have so many other duties their nuns, their life, etc. These Carmels have no interest in the internet world, thank God.

It may be "external" but a prioress who sees surfing the internet and forum sites as a good use of her time is not an community I would be interested in. I have only been drawn to the communities that don't use the internet like this - perhaps only for emails with discerners or bill paying etc and their online time is practically nothing. Many take the Pope's mention of using the internet to evangelize, etc to far as it shouldn't apply to cloistered orders - other than having a website and the few 1990s that do are usually run by a benefactor or a sister but is rarely touched or updated and they have no blog.

The posts about the younger people being too inundated with electronics and such is right and is where this ill advised notion to think it's great for cloistered orders to spend their time on websites and blogs, surfing the forums, etc. One Carmelite prioress and a PCC Abbess who I told about some orders doing this said how it is a breach their vow of Enclosure (PCC) and showed no concern for the heremtic life (Carmel) and for both, leaving the world behind them. It's sad to see so many want to bring the world into the cloister to where there is less of the cloister in the cloister! and to where so many orders/communities having movie night, watching lots of DVDs, internet surfing, etc.

Plus the biggest thing is if someone is basing their decision on whether a community or order has a 6 month or year long postulancy, etc. has no business discerning as they are treating their vocation like a job or career where you DO look at things like the promotional and money aspect of it.

I think this thread, as Chiqui, stated IS for research purposes and is nothing no one could easily find out on their own by visiting multiple orders or writing them. Just wanting to be informed and knowing this is not an impediment to finding your vocation or derailing it unless you don't see your vocation as a vocation but as a job where you get one that fits worldly criteria.

[mantellata]

I wonder if perhaps... the abbess who is raising her eyebrow... is perhaps a friend of Gemma's and was only informed of the thread through Gemma....

... It could be simply a discussion Gemma had personally with the abbess - who then decided to post here.

I agree that cloistered communities need not use the internet for "browsing" purposes.... but I don't see how the internet can hurt any worse than a Sister speaking at the grille -- that is, if employed properly.

The internet provides a means for SIsters to do the necessary shopping - without ever having to leave the cloister, it also allows Sisters to have a "parlor visit" through such means as Skype - again, an automatic barrier not unlike the grille... even more so, since there is no touching possible at all -- not even fingers through a grille.

A blog is usually more a means for parents who have no idea about cloistered living (our culture is so far from that) to learn about their daughter's life, again, no different than the periodic newsletters that have gone out from cloisters.

I contend that the internet is not necessarily the problem (though I respect those communities who feel that it need not be used) but rather how it is used. Obviously, how the internet is used by a nun or a Sister is going to be different from it's use by a layperson... the same rules for correspondence, visits and reading periodicals need to govern the new media as it did the old.

Just my two cents.

[emmaberry101]

[quote name='Laudem Gloriae' timestamp='1349034266' post='2488493']
The posts about the younger people being too inundated with electronics and such is right and is where this ill advised notion to think it's great for cloistered orders to spend their time on websites and blogs, surfing the forums, etc. One Carmelite prioress and a PCC Abbess who I told about some orders doing this said how it is a breach their vow of Enclosure (PCC) and showed no concern for the heremtic life (Carmel) and for both, leaving the world behind them. It's sad to see so many want to bring the world into the cloister to where there is less of the cloister in the cloister! and to where so many orders/communities having movie night, watching lots of DVDs, internet surfing, etc.
[/quote]

Your post had a lot of substance, and I feel bad for not giving it a deserving reply!

I only wanted to mention, pertaining to the quote above, this from the 'Portrait' Section (of Mother Francs) on the PCC Roswell site:

[size=4]"[b][font="Times New Roman"][color="#0F0B52"]A true mother, she was possessed of a tremendous love for the young, and a belief in the young people of today, knowing that they were equal to the challenge of the traditional Poor Clare life and in need of no “watering down” to suit their imagined weakness.[/color][/font][/b]"[/size]

[size=4]I think many of the blossoming clositered communities today (even just those staying happily afloat!) recognize this. After Vatican II, many communities really began to 'insult' young people, as Mother Abbess called it, by thinking them too weak to take up the genuine contemplative life, or apostolic in the active communities, and so watering them down. This was not Vatican II's fault, of course, but the fault of those who took the Council's teaching to extremes. [/size]

[size=4]I think this is the saddest thing about the communities who are not receiving enough vocations. Many of these groups are filled with warm-hearted, caring Sisters...the problem is that they have watered down the life so much that young people are going to the Orders where they can actually give of themselves in the measure they feel God is calling them too. It is such a strange paradox, and I feel very badly for the Sisters in aging communities who must be wondering what went wrong when all they were trying to do was [i]help[/i] young people.... But young discerning people today are making a distinct impression that we don't need to be helped along, though the well-intentioned kindness this help springs from is very much appreciated. We are quite ready to live the religious life in a full, sacrificial, vibrant manner.[/size]

[size=4][img]http://www.passionistnuns.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/SRMfppeaceblog.jpg[/img][/size]

[TIWW]

I recently attended an alumni event for my HS Academy ( and the motherhouse of the active community I entered after High School) We had a 3 month candidature, 6 month Postulancy, 1 year strict canonical novitiate and 3 year simple vows. Another friend from my class went with me. She had been in the order for several years. It was just so very sad for us. There were all these little old ladies with their white hair and colorful polyesters. They have perhaps had 2 vocations in the past 10 years. I sat in the reception lounge talking with one of the nuns, about how very different it is now. She commented that there were not any vocations any more. I asked her if she was familiar with the Dominicans, or Sisters of St Francis of Perpetual Adoration, or other communities who had many, many vocations. I said they had a regular prayer schedule, emphasized importance of community, wore a habit and wanted a life where they could really commit to something. She said the sisters here don't think those things are important anymore, and just couldn't understand it, ( or something to that effect) Both my friend and I drove home with heavy hearts, asking why anyone would ever want to join a community like this?

[maximillion]

I remember the reason given for why we no longer begged (asked) each month for our shampoo, soap etc, was that this was considered 'infantile'.
I began to believe that somehow our poverty, our humility, were no longer of importance to the Religious life....and here I am in the world as a result.

I am also certain there are communities who have modernised, who have changed for the better, who are more true to their roots and founders, who have given up the habit for very good reasons and who have vocations.
I think the Religious life today is more varied than it ever was, so many new apostolates, so many different forms of living out ones Vows, I praise God for these manifestations of His Being and the opportunity to find the perfect means for each of us as individuals to come to perfection.

[Gemma]

[quote name='mantellata' timestamp='1349037902' post='2488516']
I wonder if perhaps... the abbess who is raising her eyebrow... is perhaps a friend of Gemma's and was only informed of the thread through Gemma....

... It could be simply a discussion Gemma had personally with the abbess - who then decided to post here. [/quote]

Precisely.

I told her that since the phorum was made up mostly of college students, the poster was likely doing something for school. Her concern was that someone was looking for the fast track to profession. The 1991 Carmels have a longer formation program because they actually have a Ratio. The 1990s don't have a formal Ratio among themselves, and each Carmel has to develop their own. This can cause inconsistencies and weaknesses in instruction.

BTW--Carmels have prioresses.

Blessings,
Gemma