Todd Aikin And Richard Murdick.

[GregorMendel]

I think in this country, we excuse beliefs of 'bad science' in the face of strong religious commitments, especially by our public citizens, who are definitely entitled to them, but are also responsible for what they say, doubly so if they happen to say something related to their particular committee.

Edited October 29, 2012 by GregorMendel

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1351531046' post='2499687']
I was just responding to what kujo said; he called it offensive in its ignorance.

As for this being akin to the comments that a woman deserved it, I don't follow at all. His comment was on biology and biology alone. It was insensitive and scientifically wrong, but I think his point was that the rape exemptions aren't necessary. It's just that I base my thoughts on the fact that the child is alive at the moment of conception and from my strong belief that a conceived child is also a victim of the rape, just in a different way than the mother.
[/quote]

What I'm trying to say is that pro-choice people view the comments as the same category as the "you deserve it" comments. It's once instance that represents how many prominent pro-lifers operate on outdated information that is neither good science nor related to any actual experience of women. His point is valid, of course, his intended point even more so. But the fact that he said it "insensitively" points to a greater problem the pro-life cause has - that many of our advocates speak in ways that seem inconsistent with reality, whether that reality is science or human experience. And if we're going to get people to come over to our cause (or even just listen to us, for that matter), we have to speak in ways our audience understands.

So for example, instead of talking about how we can eliminate a rape exception to abortion, we could talk about increasing support for women who are raped, and make sure that support includes pregnancy care. If we only talk about babies, people are going to think that pro-lifers only care about babies. We MUST include mothers in our rhetoric, if we're going to have any hope of getting anyone who disagrees with us to listen.

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1351531261' post='2499690']
I realize that this opinion is bad science, but I still pride religious beliefs over science, no matter how "wrong and stupid" they (i.e. the religious beliefs) are. In this country we are quickly losing the ability for people to retain strong religious commitments.
[/quote]

But it's one thing to believe in Creationism. It's another thing to work on the committee for science and technology and call scientific principles "lies from the mouth of hell." Calling them "lies from the mouth of hell" is incredibly disrespectful, and shows that he has a fundamentally distrustful and antagonistic relationship with scientific inquiry. If it's my job to oversee rules regarding the activities of atheists in our country, I have an obligation to treat them with respect and concern, no matter what my personal beliefs may be. I can't run around saying that they're "damned godless heathens and are destined for hell" even if I believed it. If I am incapable of treating them respectfully, I have an obligation to recuse myself from such a position. It's not about being able to retain strong religious commitments. It's about being able to play nice with others and treat them all fairly.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Basilisa Marie

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1351538022' post='2499736']
So for example, instead of talking about how we can eliminate a rape exception to abortion, [b]we could talk about increasing support for women who are raped, and make sure that support includes pregnancy care. If we only talk about babies, people are going to think that pro-lifers only care about babies. We MUST include mothers in our rhetoric[/b], if we're going to have any hope of getting anyone who disagrees with us to listen.

[/quote]I agree whole heartedly. I'm curious if you (or jaime who posted that he is/was involved in a pro-life organization), have specific ideas on how to accomplish that. In the Diocese where I live, it's all about Project Rachel, and any Crisis Pregnancy Center is secular and provides abortion services as the easy route. I haven't found a significant support center for young/single moms that choose to keep their child.

How do ou provide those type of services without making it inconsequential wether or not a child is raised without a second parent? How would you address unwed mothers with multiple 'baby daddies'? What do you think about government require asking the mother who the father may be and pursuing support from the sperm donor? Would you change adoption laws? Would you make it easier to terminate parental rights of fathers, if they choose to not marry the mom but still make them pay child support?

Edited October 29, 2012 by Anomaly

[kujo]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1351531261' post='2499690']
I realize that this opinion is bad science, but I still pride religious beliefs over science, no matter how "wrong and stupid" they (i.e. the religious beliefs) are. In this country we are quickly losing the ability for people to retain strong religious commitments.
[/quote]

Stupidest comment of the day.

It's okay to be stupid and wrong, so long as you blame the Bible.

Gotcha

[qfnol31]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1351540609' post='2499780']

Stupidest comment of the day.

It's okay to be stupid and wrong, so long as you blame the Bible.

Gotcha
[/quote]
Hey, I never claimed to make only intelligent responses. I only ask for honesty and uniformity in flaming people. If you don't like a person or their comments, that doesn't give you extra room to be nasty about them.

[kujo]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1351541212' post='2499795']
Hey, I never claimed to make only intelligent responses. I only ask for honesty and uniformity in flaming people. If you don't like a person or their comments, that doesn't give you extra room to be nasty about them.
[/quote]

Ask around--I'm pretty equal opportunity when it comes to my nastiness.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1351541307' post='2499798']

Ask around--I'm pretty equal opportunity when it comes to my nastiness.
[/quote]
Even if you are, media and our society are not.

[MIKolbe]

he's ugly too

[kujo]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1351541670' post='2499803']
Even if you are, media and our society are not.
[/quote]

Well you're talking to me today, and since you said what you said, I am holding YOU (not society) responsible.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1351541733' post='2499806']

Well you're talking to me today, and since you said what you said, I am holding YOU (not society) responsible.
[/quote]
Go back to my first post. I was defending their position against the media and society. Plus, freedom of religion (and more Murdick than Aikin) is a core part of our country. I doubt he was spouting simply person conviction.

[kujo]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1351541894' post='2499809']
Go back to my first post. I was defending their position against the media and society. Plus, freedom of religion (and more Murdick than Aikin) is a core part of our country. I doubt he was spouting simply person conviction.
[/quote]

This "freedom of religion" croutons is retarded. That freedom pertains to the government not being able to prohibit the exercise of your religious--or non-religious--views. That doesn't mean that "society" has to put up with religious nutjobs and zealots who act like jerks and say things are fact when they are false. Case in point "A woman has some stuff that can deal with that." what tha' fa fa fa fa fonze??!

[qfnol31]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1351542604' post='2499828']

This "freedom of religion" croutons is retarded. That freedom pertains to the government not being able to prohibit the exercise of your religious--or non-religious--views. That doesn't mean that "society" has to put up with religious nutjobs and zealots who act like jerks and say things are fact when they are false. Case in point "A woman has some stuff that can deal with that." what tha' fa fa fa fa fonze??!
[/quote]
Sounds like you want to rid society of people with whom you disagree. That's a dangerous route.

[kujo]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1351543114' post='2499836']
Sounds like you want to rid society of people with whom you disagree. That's a dangerous route.
[/quote]

Quite the opposite.

I don't care what people believe; however, if they're going to be my leader, they better not have antiquated, unscientific beliefs about the body.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1351543753' post='2499851']

Quite the opposite.

I don't care what people believe; however, if they're going to be my leader, they better not have antiquated, unscientific beliefs about the body.
[/quote]
How does Murdick fit in? He didn't give any antiquated information, so far as I know.

[kujo]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1351544284' post='2499873']
How does Murdick fit in? He didn't give any antiquated information, so far as I know.
[/quote]

No idea what that guy said. I've been talking about Akin.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1351546184' post='2499901']

No idea what that guy said. I've been talking about Akin.
[/quote]
Babies, even rape babies, are intended by God, though the rape itself was obviously not intended by God. (Those are his words/ideas.)

[kujo]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1351546242' post='2499904']
Babies, even rape babies, are intended by God, though the rape itself was obviously not intended by God. (Those are his words/ideas.)
[/quote]

Oh is he the "God's plan" guy?

Yeah, if you don't know enough not to watch your words careful on that subject, you shouldn't be talking about it.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1351546328' post='2499909']

Oh is he the "God's plan" guy?

Yeah, if you don't know enough not to watch your words careful on that subject, you shouldn't be talking about it.
[/quote]
I think it came up in an interview. See, that's not really fair, to ensure an idea like that comes up in an interview just so he can be flamed. If we don't want to hear their opinions, don't ask.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1351539818' post='2499757']
I agree whole heartedly. I'm curious if you (or jaime who posted that he is/was involved in a pro-life organization), have specific ideas on how to accomplish that. In the Diocese where I live, it's all about Project Rachel, and any Crisis Pregnancy Center is secular and provides abortion services as the easy route. I haven't found a significant support center for young/single moms that choose to keep their child.

How do ou provide those type of services without making it inconsequential wether or not a child is raised without a second parent? How would you address unwed mothers with multiple 'baby daddies'? What do you think about government require asking the mother who the father may be and pursuing support from the sperm donor? Would you change adoption laws? Would you make it easier to terminate parental rights of fathers, if they choose to not marry the mom but still make them pay child support?
[/quote]

I haven't been involved in any major pro-life work, just donation drives for our local crisis pregnancy center and whatnot. But one way is to provide support for women who are dealing with an unintended pregnancy on a one-to-one level. One of my friends from high school messaged me on facebook one day, telling me that her birth control had failed, she was pregnant and her boyfriend was in no position to be in any real supportive role (mentally or financially). Thankfully she decided to keep her daughter. I just tried to be the best kind of friend I could be - when I was home on break we'd go shopping so she could get out of the house, we'd talk about her struggles with trying to figure out how to get on food stamps, dealing with her parents and her then-boyfriend's parents, balancing school with work and finding a good day care, that kind of stuff. Just being "present" with her seemed to make a world of difference. I really think that's the most effective way for us to promote the pro-life cause. We have to go grassroots. Jaime would probably know more about putting together something more official, like an organization.

While I think it's important that we don't forget the importance of two parents, marriage before children, and whatnot....I think if we're going to be the most effective ministers to women in crisis pregnancies, we're going to have to let some of these talking points go. We have to figure out where the real problems are, and attack those. Yelling at teenagers for using birth control misses the real issue - why are they having sex in the first place? It's that sort of thing. I'm not nearly educated enough in issues of poverty and single mothers to make any real judgments about the kinds of questions you're asking, but I do think we need to be asking all of those questions.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1351531261' post='2499690']
I realize that this opinion is bad science, but I still pride religious beliefs over science, no matter how "wrong and stupid" they (i.e. the religious beliefs) are. In this country we are quickly losing the ability for people to retain strong religious commitments.
[/quote]

He can believe whatever garbage he wants, religious or not. But, he shouldnt be able to and still hold the same position as he does. A minister on science, space and technology that is that anti science, and misinformed?

how would you feel if a ArchBishop didnt believe in transubstantiation, openly?