Franciscan Advent Is Upon Us!

[Egidio]

[center]For all you Franciscan Wannabe's, today marks the beginning of our advent for Christmas, according to chapter III of the rule of St Francis: [size=5][color=#663300]They should fast from the feast of all saints until Christmas.[/color][/size][/center]

[center][font=comic sans ms,cursive][i]"Tis the season to be hungry, tra la la la la, la la la la. . ."[/i][/font][/center]
[center][img]http://www.smileysnetwork.com/manger/manger01.gif[/img][/center]

[center][color=#000080][size=6][font=comic sans ms,cursive]AVE MARIA!![/font][/size][/color][/center]

[Eowyn]

Just as I'm eating a muffin.

[maximillion]

How I miss the conventual fast.......

Edited November 2, 2012 by maximillion

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

Until I started reading Phatmass, I'd never heard of fasting in Advent--whenever it is considered to start. I'd only heard of fasting for Lent.

Is the Lenten fast (for Franciscans or others) pretty much the same as the Lenten fast or is it different? (You can tell I STILL don't know anything about fasting in Advent!)

[emmaberry101]

Too bad Poor Clares fast all the time (except Christmas!) May all Franciscans have a very blessed Advent.

[i<3franciscans]

[quote name='emmaberry101' timestamp='1351899227' post='2503170']
Too bad Poor Clares fast all the time (except Christmas!) May all Franciscans have a very blessed Advent.
[/quote]
Do they fast on Easter too!?

[Gemma]

Interesting. I never knew that!

Blessings,
Gemma

[emmaberry101]

[quote name='i<3franciscans' timestamp='1351962098' post='2503492']
Do they fast on Easter too!?
[/quote]

From what I have read, Christmas is the one day a year where St Francis said to 'smear the walls with meat' or something like that.. Of course, the bulk of anything I know about Franciscans comes from Mother Francis, PCC who wrote most of her materials before Vatican II, so the fasting she described may have changed, but that is unlikely, as she wrote the new PCC Constitutions post-VII!

[Maximilianus]

Bien interesante. The Carmelites (afaik are supposed to, according to St. Albert's rule) fast from the Exaltation of the Holy Cross until Easter.

[size=2]edit:typo[/size]

Edited November 3, 2012 by Maximilianus

[truthfinder]

[quote name='Maximilianus' timestamp='1351975075' post='2503566']
Bien interesante. The Carmelites (afaik are supposed to, according to St. Albert's rule) fast from the Exaltation of the Holy Cross until Easter.

[size=2]edit:typo[/size]
[/quote]
Yep, the Carmelites I know still do this, but Mother said it's not quite as strict as pre-VatII which she said involved weighing all the food.

[Nunsense]

At Wolverhampton Carmel we started the winter fast on the Feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross - it means less choices in food now and no treats (except on Sundays and solemnities). There are little things too like no biscuits (cookies) with our afternoon cup of tea, and supper is basically soup and salad. The Carmelite fast goes until Easter.

Happy Advent to all the Franciscans! I hope to get back to Carmel for the 1st Sunday of Advent - so please pray me on. We change breviaries at the start of Advent too and I always like when we start the next breviary. It shows the richness of the Church liturgical year.

[maximillion]

We didn't weigh everything, but we did weigh our bread.....it does not take long to tell by eye exactly the size of the chunk you need to cut off the loaf for it to be more or less exactly the correct weight. The scales appeared at the Exaltation as Nunsense says.
For about a week when I was a Novice I had little bits of stale bread in our drawer ( the dining tables had little drawers at each place - does this still exist?) which I would drop in the evening soup, a product of not having estimated the amount correctly.
We only had butter or marmalade to put on our bread on Sundays and feast days, and this too disappeared during the two long fasts, as did any kind of dessert except fruit.

Our butter was homemade and sometimes was not so carefully churned as it may have been, with a slight tang of buttermilk which during the summer months became, well, er, almost rancid like.
I well remember the Postulant who entered after me asking permission to "consume the rancid butter Mother" when asked what she would suggest for a personal penance!

[Nunsense]

[quote name='maximillion' timestamp='1352021282' post='2503803']
We didn't weigh everything, but we did weigh our bread.....it does not take long to tell by eye exactly the size of the chunk you need to cut off the loaf for it to be more or less exactly the correct weight. The scales appeared at the Exaltation as Nunsense says.
For about a week when I was a Novice I had little bits of stale bread in our drawer ( the dining tables had little drawers at each place - does this still exist?) which I would drop in the evening soup, a product of not having estimated the amount correctly.
We only had butter or marmalade to put on our bread on Sundays and feast days, and this too disappeared during the two long fasts, as did any kind of dessert except fruit.

Our butter was homemade and sometimes was not so carefully churned as it may have been, with a slight tang of buttermilk which during the summer months became, well, er, almost rancid like.
I well remember the Postulant who entered after me asking permission to "consume the rancid butter Mother" when asked what she would suggest for a personal penance!
[/quote]

We haven't actually weighed bread at any of the Carmels I have been in but I have heard of this before. And Sundays at all of the convents have been days wehre we get extra things, even during the fast. Marmalade is a penance for me, not a treat, nuy I love it when there is jam instead!

And we haven't had drawers in the Refectory at any of the Carmels I have been at either - but that sounds neat. If I have bread left over, I just leave it in my Refectory (the napkin/serviette, not the room) until the next meal. At the Carmel in Perth. we had little plastic containers to put our bread in.

[emmaberry101]

[quote name='i<3franciscans' timestamp='1351962098' post='2503492']
Do they fast on Easter too!?
[/quote]

Sorry to give a second answer to your question, but I came across some more materials that may give you a better answer!

"Your prudence should know then that, except for the weak and the sick, for whom Saint Francis advised and admonished us to show every possible care in matters of food, none of us who are healthy and strong should eat anything other than Lenten fare, either on ferial days or on feast days. Thus, we must fast every day except Sundays and the Nativity of the Lord, on which days we may have two meals. And on ordinary Thursdays everyone may do as she wishes, so that she who does not wish to fast is not obliged. However, we who are well should fast every day except on Sundays and on Christmas.

During the entire Easter week, as the writing of Saint Francis tells us, and on the feasts of the Blessed Mary and of the holy Apostles, we are not obliged to fast, unless these feasts occur on a Friday. And, as I have already said, we who are well and strong always eat Lenten fare." -St Clare to Agnes III

[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]"The sisters shall fast at all times. They may eat twice on Christmas, however, no matter on what day it happens to fall. The younger sisters, those who are weak, and those who are serving outside the monastery may be mercifully dispensed as the Abbess sees fit. But the sisters are not bound to corporal fasting in time of manifest necessity." -The Rule of St. Clare[/font][/size]

[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]"[/font][/size]The rule says that the sisters shall [color=#000000]fast[/color] at all times except on the Feast of the Nativity. The constitutions explain that meat may not be used even on Christmas." -[url="http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=9493"]http://www.catholic....iew.php?id=9493[/url]

So it sounds as if St Clare taught that they were not obligated to fast on Easter, but that those who are able always fast as in Lent, except on Christmas. Even on Christmas meat is not to be eaten-which is probably a good thing! If you went decades without eating meat, it might not sit will if it reappeared on your plate one day.

Edited November 4, 2012 by emmaberry101

[Nunsense]

I think we need to be careful when we talk about 'fasting' as it can mean different things to different communities. For example, for Catholics, fasting is the reduction of one's intake of food, which may or may not include abstinence from meat (or another type of food).

If we are talking about simply not eating meat, this is a very common practice in many Orders, especially Carmelites (and perhaps Poor Clares?) and is not dependant upon what day it is. According to the Rule of St Albert, which is what Carmelites follow ...

[i]'You are to fast every day, except Sundays, from the feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross until Easter Day, unless bodily sickness or feebleness, or some other good reason, demand a dispensation from the fast; for necessity overrides every law.[/i]

[i]You are to abstain from meat, except as a remedy for sickness or feebleness. But as, when you are on a journey, you more often than not have to beg your way, outside your own houses you may eat foodstuffs that have been cooked with meat, so as to avoid giving trouble to your hosts. At sea, however, meat may be eaten.'[/i]

According to reports, St Clare was a bit obsessive about not eating herself so this may have been put into her rule, but certainly common sense would have to apply otherwise you would have a convent full of anorexics! Holiness is not dependant on how much you eat or St Thomas Aquinas wouldn't be a saint!

PS - And yes, I do love St Clare - I took Clare as my confirmation name!

Edited November 4, 2012 by nunsense

[emmaberry101]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1352069252' post='2504129']
I think we need to be careful when we talk about 'fasting' as it can mean different things to different communities. For example, for Catholics, fasting is the reduction of one's intake of food, which may or may not include abstinence from meat (or another type of food).

If we are talking about simply not eating meat, this is a very common practice in many Orders, especially Carmelites (and perhaps Poor Clares?) and is not dependant upon what day it is. According to the Rule of St Albert, which is what Carmelites follow ...

[i]'You are to fast every day, except Sundays, from the feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross until Easter Day, unless bodily sickness or feebleness, or some other good reason, demand a dispensation from the fast; for necessity overrides every law.[/i]

[i]You are to abstain from meat, except as a remedy for sickness or feebleness. But as, when you are on a journey, you more often than not have to beg your way, outside your own houses you may eat foodstuffs that have been cooked with meat, so as to avoid giving trouble to your hosts. At sea, however, meat may be eaten.'[/i]

According to reports, St Clare was a bit obsessive about not eating herself so this may have been put into her rule, but certainly common sense would have to apply otherwise you would have a convent full of anorexics! Holiness is not dependant on how much you eat or St Thomas Aquinas wouldn't be a saint!

PS - And yes, I do love St Clare - I took Clare as my confirmation name!
[/quote]

What a beautiful confirmation name! Yes, the PCCs fast-as in one full meal with the other two collations not adding up to another meal. They are quite thin, and the strictest order I know concerning age and health requirements for this very reason, along with rising at midnight. However, 'Poor Clares Seldom Die!'

[i<3franciscans]

[quote name='emmaberry101' timestamp='1352056388' post='2503984']
Sorry to give a second answer to your question, but I came across some more materials that may give you a better answer!

"Your prudence should know then that, except for the weak and the sick, for whom Saint Francis advised and admonished us to show every possible care in matters of food, none of us who are healthy and strong should eat anything other than Lenten fare, either on ferial days or on feast days. Thus, we must fast every day except Sundays and the Nativity of the Lord, on which days we may have two meals. And on ordinary Thursdays everyone may do as she wishes, so that she who does not wish to fast is not obliged. However, we who are well should fast every day except on Sundays and on Christmas.

During the entire Easter week, as the writing of Saint Francis tells us, and on the feasts of the Blessed Mary and of the holy Apostles, we are not obliged to fast, unless these feasts occur on a Friday. And, as I have already said, we who are well and strong always eat Lenten fare." -St Clare to Agnes III

[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]"The sisters shall fast at all times. They may eat twice on Christmas, however, no matter on what day it happens to fall. The younger sisters, those who are weak, and those who are serving outside the monastery may be mercifully dispensed as the Abbess sees fit. But the sisters are not bound to corporal fasting in time of manifest necessity." -The Rule of St. Clare[/font][/size]

[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]"[/font][/size]The rule says that the sisters shall [color=#000000]fast[/color] at all times except on the Feast of the Nativity. The constitutions explain that meat may not be used even on Christmas." -[url="http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=9493"]http://www.catholic....iew.php?id=9493[/url]

So it sounds as if St Clare taught that they were not obligated to fast on Easter, but that those who are able always fast as in Lent, except on Christmas. Even on Christmas meat is not to be eaten-which is probably a good thing! If you went decades without eating meat, it might not sit will if it reappeared on your plate one day.
[/quote]
Thanks for your answers! Happy Advent!

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1352069252' post='2504129']
[i]......At sea, however, meat may be eaten.'.....[/i]

[/quote]

I found this exception to the rule of fasting very interesting. Obviously, sea voyages at the time the rule was written were VERY different than today's modern cruise ships!

[AnneLine]

Yeah... generally you had to eat what there was to eat... and much of it wasa salted meats that survived well on a sea voyage.

I really love the provision about using common sense when traveling: [i] But as, when you are on a journey, you more often than not have to beg your way, outside your own houses you may eat foodstuffs that have been cooked with meat, so as to avoid giving trouble to your hosts[/i]

That also sounds like a pretty good common sense kind of exception. Common sense and charity.

Funny story... one of the Sisters who was in the Carmelite Monastery in Marinwood (about 10 miles north of San Francisco) had to go into San Francisco for a medical appointment, and was given permisison for her father to take her. She asked her dad if it would be possible for them to take the ferry over the Bay rather than drive on the Golden Gate Bridge. He asked her why, and with dancing eyes and great glee, she quoted that passage of the rule, adding: "If I take a sea voyage, I can have a hamburger!" They both laughed, he said 'nothing doing'... and they returned her to the monastery discalced and meatless....

Edited November 5, 2012 by AnneLine

[Nunsense]

[quote name='AnneLine' timestamp='1352155331' post='2504756']
Yeah... generally you had to eat what there was to eat... and much of it wasa salted meats that survived well on a sea voyage.

I really love the provision about using common sense when traveling: [i] But as, when you are on a journey, you more often than not have to beg your way, outside your own houses you may eat foodstuffs that have been cooked with meat, so as to avoid giving trouble to your hosts[/i]

That also sounds like a pretty good common sense kind of exception. Common sense and charity.

Funny story... one of the Sisters who was in the Carmelite Monastery in Marinwood (about 10 miles north of San Francisco) had to go into San Francisco for a medical appointment, and was given permisison for her father to take her. She asked her dad if it would be possible for them to take the ferry over the Bay rather than drive on the Golden Gate Bridge. He asked her why, and with dancing eyes and great glee, she quoted that passage of the rule, adding: "If I take a sea voyage, I can have a hamburger!" They both laughed, he said 'nothing doing'... and they returned her to the monastery discalced and meatless....
[/quote]

Wow Anne - strict father! As for the 'while at sea' thing, I think that this can apply to any journey - sea travel was what they had in those days, but now we have cars and planes (and ferries) etc. Our nuns will eat meat when they are outside the convent travelling - I don't usually because I don't like meat very much, but I don't even think about it really. My sister asked if I was vegetarian and I just said, don't go to any trouble for me - I eat what you eat. And that's common sense to me. If I buy something for myself, it might be a mini quiche or fish and chips, but when I eat with them, I join in with what they are having. My Novice Mistress says she will eat meat outside the convent, especially if they have a long journey to make. I think it depends on the community these days.

In Edmonton, they eat meat regularly. I didn't like that but they said that the meat was donated by local farmers and they felt it was in keeping with poverty to accept the meat rather than reject it. I accepted it while I was there but I prefer the meatless lefestyle, not only because I am not keen on it (I was a vegetarian for over 20 years because I had been a Buddhist before I became a Catholic), but also because I like the idea that it is in the Rule, not just the Constitutions - so it I think it should have more impact.

At OLR (Benedictine so different Rule), they raised their own meat. It was some of the most delicious meat I have ever eaten but we had way too much of it for my tastes. I am glad to be back in Carmel!